What's the distinction between "metal" and "h

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dfuruta
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Post by dfuruta » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:19 pm

vvv wrote:So when I said, "OK, I'm done baiting ...", it worked, eh? :lol:
too grim & trve over here to have a sense of humor, sorry :evil:

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Post by cgarges » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:59 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:Animal Bag
Did you seriously just reference Animal Bag? Man, that's a blast from the past. I did an album for Luke Edwards' new band, actually. Boo Duckworth lived in my neighborhood and I used to hear those guys practicing all the time at his house.

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Snarl 12/8
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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:43 pm

cgarges wrote:
Snarl 12/8 wrote:Animal Bag
Did you seriously just reference Animal Bag? Man, that's a blast from the past. I did an album for Luke Edwards' new band, actually. Boo Duckworth lived in my neighborhood and I used to hear those guys practicing all the time at his house.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
I just got turned onto them a little while ago and have been totally digging them. They sound like Mr. Bungle meets Guns and Roses to me, but what do I know? I had a couple moments of wondering if you'd ever met them or whatever, given the neck of the woods they hail from.

I hope it's not totally evil for me to post this link, for those that want to grok the fullness of the Animal Bag. http://www.animalbag.com/home/Forum/tab ... fault.aspx

So, what genre, Chris?
Carl Keil

Almost forgot: Please steal my drum tracks. and more.

Lost on side
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Post by Lost on side » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:16 pm

Hard Rock is clearly a more blues-based music, while Metal is more "classical" in nature. There are some acts that blur the lines, but generally, that is where the difference lies.
If that cat there doesn't stop it man, we're not playing anymore!

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Post by Bro Shark » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:50 am

Lost on side wrote:Hard Rock is clearly a more blues-based music, while Metal is more "classical" in nature. There are some acts that blur the lines, but generally, that is where the difference lies.
Yes. Best explanation so far, for sure.

dfuruta
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Post by dfuruta » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:05 pm

What exactly is "classical" about metal beyond some superficial stylings? The rhythmic & harmonic organization are straight out of the blues. No power chords or backbeats in classical, and pentatonic shredding isn't going to get one very far when playing Mozart.

Maybe this isn't fair, but the narrative that metal's heritage is Romantic classical rather than Black American music seems to me to be largely something the NSBM guys are pushing.

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Post by Bro Shark » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:50 pm

I believe the argument goes rather that when blues was removed from hard rock, the resulting sound was metal. No one denies the blues -> rock heritage. And then arranging things more symphonically and in bigger scale, as opposed to just backbeats and I-IV-V riffs.

When I hear "Ride the Lightning" I don't hear much blues. I do hear a lot of pomp and grandeur. More Wagner than Robert Johnson.

Edit: also, "shredders" are quite fond of harmonic minor.

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Post by Lost on side » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:03 pm

dfuruta wrote:What exactly is "classical" about metal beyond some superficial stylings? The rhythmic & harmonic organization are straight out of the blues. No power chords or backbeats in classical, and pentatonic shredding isn't going to get one very far when playing Mozart.

Maybe this isn't fair, but the narrative that metal's heritage is Romantic classical rather than Black American music seems to me to be largely something the NSBM guys are pushing.
Okay. I think the guy below me has my intended answer. I wasn't sure what to call the "bluesless" music of metal, so I fell back on "classical". Regardless, I think that is where the distinction lies.

I don't know what NSBM is.
If that cat there doesn't stop it man, we're not playing anymore!

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Post by dfuruta » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:45 pm

Using harmonic minor scales in a scalar way is iffy in traditional functional tonality, since you've got that nasty augmented 2nd :D. That sort of scale (or, later, the pentatonic) was often playing at exoticism?Turkish/Arab and then East Asian, respectively.

I don't know, I thought that metal came from Black Sabbath? Straight up blues background & influence, there. And it's not really such a big step from Chuck Berry to Motorhead (& then to Venom & then)...

I get the point that the feeling & the scope of some metal aspire to sturm und drang, and that that's more in line with the European classical tradition. But, I think the ways they get there are generally using a language taken from the blues (even if it's obscured). There are a lot of metal bands that want to be "Wagnerian", but very few of them are using any sort of classical tonal language, let alone the syrupy extended tonal dreck that Wagner & the other late romantics actually built their stuff around. And, there's no rubato, very few dynamic shifts, and rather little of the other central parts of classical expressiveness.

Sorry to keep picking on it?I've been thinking about this (classical vs blues influence in metal) quite a lot lately, and I think there's actually something important at stake. There's so much racism and sexism in metal, especially my subgenre (black metal), and I've wondered if the metal's-heritage-is-classical-music thing is a subtle way to try to erase the Blackness of it, so to speak. I'm not saying this is what you guys are pushing?there are totally valid reasons to make that claim, like the ones y'all have raised?but it seems to me like that's the motivation driving some prominent voices in the metal scene (ANUS, for example). Anyway.

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Post by Lost on side » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:26 pm

dfuruta wrote:Using harmonic minor scales in a scalar way is iffy in traditional functional tonality, since you've got that nasty augmented 2nd :D. That sort of scale (or, later, the pentatonic) was often playing at exoticism?Turkish/Arab and then East Asian, respectively.

I don't know, I thought that metal came from Black Sabbath? Straight up blues background & influence, there. And it's not really such a big step from Chuck Berry to Motorhead (& then to Venom & then)...

I get the point that the feeling & the scope of some metal aspire to sturm und drang, and that that's more in line with the European classical tradition. But, I think the ways they get there are generally using a language taken from the blues (even if it's obscured). There are a lot of metal bands that want to be "Wagnerian", but very few of them are using any sort of classical tonal language, let alone the syrupy extended tonal dreck that Wagner & the other late romantics actually built their stuff around. And, there's no rubato, very few dynamic shifts, and rather little of the other central parts of classical expressiveness.

Sorry to keep picking on it?I've been thinking about this (classical vs blues influence in metal) quite a lot lately, and I think there's actually something important at stake. There's so much racism and sexism in metal, especially my subgenre (black metal), and I've wondered if the metal's-heritage-is-classical-music thing is a subtle way to try to erase the Blackness of it, so to speak. I'm not saying this is what you guys are pushing?there are totally valid reasons to make that claim, like the ones y'all have raised?but it seems to me like that's the motivation driving some prominent voices in the metal scene (ANUS, for example). Anyway.
I already acknowledged that "classical" was just a term I fell back on for lack of a better description.
As I mentioned, there are bands that blur the distinction, I think of Black Sabbath as the beginning of the divergence (I could be wrong). I'm not trying to marginalize any black influence on metal or something.
I think the definition holds up pretty well, and I haven't seen a a more definitive explanation here yet. I don't think it lies in the clothing, or the lyrics (or the race).

Maybe there is something to the racial angle, but it wouldn't necessarily have to be a negative proposition. Different cultures have different music, and there is a constant fusion between them, so if some music starts to take on the characteristics of a particular culture, that isn't necessarily a prejudice. Just because some assholes attempt use it for their misguided purposes, doesn't mean it is bad, or isn't true.
If that cat there doesn't stop it man, we're not playing anymore!

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