singer can't sing

[GlowSounds]

^^^^^ That was my thought too. But I know this is all a matter of context & the studio, project budget, artist, engineer...

But ya, textbook example of engineer vs. producer. To be fair, this is a black and white issue in theory, but can get a little gray in practice maybe?

[Gregg Juke]

>>>>To be fair, this is a black and white issue in theory, but can get a little gray in practice maybe?<<<<

Yes, absolutely, but that's usually due to our short-comings/failure to plan/make appropriate agreements before sessions begin.

I've been there myself. People don't want to talk, or sign paperwork, they just want to get started. And we want to get started on the project, so we let things slide. But they will always come back to bite you.

Clearly define roles, sign contracts, and take care of the business _before_ the first downbeat.

GJ

[cgarges]

That's fine, but some people need and/or expect a little guidance. What about the baby band who's in the studio for the first time? It's all a matter of degree and an engineer should be able to see those needs and step up if necessary.

If they want guidance, I'm happy to give it to them, but there's a difference in making a few suggestions and having artistic control. I don't always assume I know more about their project than they do. I've been doing this a long time, but I've certainly been wrong about something more than once.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[lyman]

Yes, it is wise to get things like roles & responsibilities, time-frame, payment details, etc. settled in advance. I don't think supafuzz is coming from a place of malice (ego, jerkiness) like others are saying. Wanting the best outcome on a project you're hired for is a good trait...I wouldn't want to give my money to somebody who doesn't give a shit, regardless of their credentials. He's maybe not using 'best practices' but we're all guilty of that. I'm doing it right now by wasting time online!

[Bro Shark]

We still haven't heard the answer of whether the OP was hired to Produce, or Engineer. There is a lot of assuming going on.

From there it's pretty black and white. OP is making a decision that 100% suggests a strong Producer role, which is essentially "fire the lead singer." There are no grey areas in this particular case. Talking about hypothetical situations that may warrant a grey-area type judgment is pointless here.

[JGriffin]

We still haven't heard the answer of whether the OP was hired to Produce, or Engineer. There is a lot of assuming going on.

It's true. Once we have that answer we can respond more precisely.

This is very similar to the threads that start out "what do I do when a bass player brings in a 5-string?" or "What if the drummer wants to use a piccolo snare?" to which the answer is always: are you the producer or the engineer?

[GooberNumber9]

what do you do in the situation where the singer should not be singing?

Listen to a lot of Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen, Les Claypool and David Byrne and try to understand the artist for who they are, not who you think they should be.

Edit: Oh yeah. Bob Dylan.

[Gregg Juke]

And Johnny Cash...

And Donald Fagen, of course. A much better "singer" technically than those mentioned above, but he wasn't as "good" (technically) as the guy that sang on the first album... But then again, he (Dave Palmer) wasn't as appropriate for the material either.

It's a funny thing, that as an A&R person or a producer you'd have to make some decisions about (but as an engineer, you really shouldn't be burdened with much beyond making those simple suggestions that have already been noted).

BTW, I like lots of "quirky-voice" poetic guys (and gals). But there is a line that I personally won't cross-- Leonard Cohen is a good example of that line for me; never could stand his material, mainly because of his non-voice. Which shows you how subjective this all is-- obviously Cohen is considered a genius in many circles and some would give their right arm to work with him.

GJ

PS-- In a related but similar vein, it should be remembered that George Martin hated Ringo's drumming for quite some time. We can't all always be right all of the time...

[supafuzz]

We still haven't heard the answer of whether the OP was hired to Produce, or Engineer.

I thought I said earlier......I'm engineering overdubs mixing and giving some production advice and vocals are in that category. The singer is asking me to help produce the vocal recording. I understand the difference between strictly engineering and producing....
And I've already listened to all the above mentioned artists for many years and if this guy could sing even remotely closely to any one of them there would be no issue.
In this case it's just weak singing and it sounds bad as the music and his guitar playing is really great.

so now what can you tell me? How do you tell someone they need another year of intense practise and lessons to get to where thye can sing with tone and power.

[supafuzz]

sorry supafuzz, you come across like the jerk here. especially the out of shape comments.

you don't know me...and you have no right to call me a jerk....
People who know me know that i'm passionate about what I do and I really care about the clients and know that I'm the polar opposite of a jerk
so I'm not sure why you think you have the right to call me names.

If you're fat and out of shape and smoke it FUCKS UP YOUR VOICE AND BREATH CONTROL. Fact!!

Anyway I forgot to post that I've been hird as producer after the song was written and recorded and we're re recording vocals and guitars and fixing the super over compressed drums etc.

I could give a shit about controlling every little thing and always leave the client an out to have things exactly how they want it....musch less stress for me and they seem to keep coming back.

Jesus if I wanted to fight I would get married again! I'm regretting starting this thread.

[Bro Shark]

"Giving some production advice" isn't Producing. You gave your advice, and he decided not to take it, so. Record the guy, be done with it, and move onto the next gig. Ultimately it's up to him. You act like it's your ass that's on the line, which I think is confusing a lot of people here.

[Gregg Juke]

Hey Supa,

Speaking for myself, I meant no discourtesy or disrespect-- you asked a question; answers have been forthcoming.

As to Ott0bot's observation, at the risk if speaking for someone else and getting it totally wrong (I get it wrong plenty), I don't think he was calling you a jerk. He said "...you come off as the jerk...," meaning you could be perceived that way and it's assumed that that's not what you want.

As to the heart of the matter, other than the producer/engineer dichotomy and pre-production advice already given, there really is no "answer." It's a human inter-personal communication thing; there is a range of possible ways that you could approach the "you suck" discussion, but it all depends on a number of factors including whether or not it's actually necessary to say it in the first place. And
ultimately, only you can decide that. I would advocate for being _honest_ and _upfront_ (once you decide that it is _absolutely necessary_ to approach the topic at all), but also _careful_, _cautious_, and extremely _tactful_.

The rest is completely up to you. But it's always harder to do this sort of thing in the middle of a project rather than before it begins, hence my urging better attention to pre-production next time.

If the guy is intent on singing, and you are intent on producing/engineering/whatever combination thereof and level that you are involved at, then your job becomes being the Uber-Coach (tm), getting the best possible performance/interpretation out of this guy as possible, through your communications ability, musical skill, and knowledge of options available through the wonderful world of audio technology. No mystery; you've just got to do it.

But if it's truly painful for you to be involved (the "polishing a turd" syndrome), then you may want to consider bow-ing out of the gig...

GJ

[supafuzz]

Telling some one they come off like a jerk rather than calling them a jerk is just a passive agressive trick..

anyway thanks for all the kind words and advice...
I'm outta here

[ott0bot]

Telling some one they come off like a jerk rather than calling them a jerk is just a passive agressive trick..

anyway thanks for all the kind words and advice...
I'm outta here

hi. I didn't think I was being out of line. passive aggressive trick? no sir. I'm just trying to say the way you phrased the statement you came across as a jerk.

that sounds fairly moderate feedback from me. if I posed a question on a forum asking for feedback...I would be surprised if I didnt hear much worse, and would not take offense. I certainly didn't mean to assume you were are a jerk as a person. Obviously, I don't know you...but you don't know me either. so please don't think I'm passing some kind of immaculate judgement. I'm sure you had the best intentions, and good luck with your production.

[Brett Siler]

Everyone needs to listen to Arnold and chill out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbAnAOrJNWo