The impact of college radio in 2013?

Recording Techniques, People Skills, Gear, Recording Spaces, Computers, and DIY

Moderators: drumsound, tomb

witchfeet
gettin' sounds
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:30 am
Location: Chicago

The impact of college radio in 2013?

Post by witchfeet » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:58 am

I'm not sure where to post this since there doesn't seem to be an appropriate sub-forum for this that I can find, so moderators feel free to move it.

I'm looking for some advice, or maybe just some general feedback, from other artists, label people, and just regular old music fans about what they feel the impact of college radio has in our current day and age?

Basically, I'm in a band that is working our first record and we're looking to take the right steps to get more exposure to eventually support smarter more effective regional touring. We've been offered a college radio campaign by a very reputable promoter (it ain't cheap though). They are one of the top three that any band would want to work with, win awards at CMJ, work very big known records and artists, have a great client list, and they also do PR and tour promo. I'd like to think that they are somewhat selective, and I'm stoked they are willing to work with us. I don't want to name any names, but let's just say they aren't some small time rip-off promotion company, they have some pull in the college radio community and have a track record to prove it.

Anyways, we're 90s sounding loud, catchy indie rock band. Think Guided by Voices, Superdrag, Pixies, Replacements, etc. We have good songs and can also deliver on stage, all members with years of experience. The president of previously mentioned promotion company said he thinks the first step in trying to break the band, is a college radio campaign to promote awareness, and hopefully get some CMJ charting action. He believes we'll do quite well due to the sound we have.

I guess I'm wondering, with the decline of radio, is this working for anyone else in the present day?

I'd like to think the promoter knows what they're doing, but also spending that kind of dough is somewhat scary, it's enough that it would fund an entire second album release. They seem to think PR is a waste of resources at the moment, and that it'll work better after some radio pushing to get the band's "brand awareness" more out in the open, and hopefully attract "tastemakers" in a more round about way than press release submissions. Tour press would follow the campaign for a 10 day regional tour we'll be doing in December, as well as weekend one and two off dates. We're based in Chicago.

Comments, suggestions, real life experiences?

Orbit Audio
audio school
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:36 am

Post by Orbit Audio » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:07 am

You sound like a band I might like - Mats/GBV/Pixies etc.

Beware of marketing buzz words like "brand awareness" and "tastemakers".
After all you aren't selling candy bars.

Everything matters but tossing all of your eggs on a college campaign isn't the best approach.

If you dudes are doing a few weekends and a 10 day "coming up" in 6 months, I would be asking for both a press and small radio deal. A lot of which you guys can do yourself. Go play a college town and go to the radio station and talk to them, be nice - you might be surprised on how nice folks can help nice folks. Face to face interaction is king.

I didn't know that radio promoters win awards, (I guess I do now) not sure what for and by whom.

Why the big secret on who they are?

With all the slippery folks out there I say go for it, what do you got to loose, a couple of bucks?

All IMO

Good luck!

User avatar
Gregg Juke
cryogenically thawing
Posts: 3544
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:35 pm
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Post by Gregg Juke » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:41 am

Yeah, as you may have noticed, radio isn't going anywhere. And college radio still seems to have some pull with (wait for it)-- college audiences. So if that's what you'e going for, it sounds fine.

The devil is in the details, as they say, so how much exactly will you be spending out of pocket? Is this a management/booking company as well, or just radio? Because dudes blow a lot of smoke when they are courting potential clients, but what I would do if I were you is ask previous agency clients (not us) what they think of this firm and the work they have done/are capable of. Write some e-mails, make some calls, it won't hurt.

The best radio promotion and promo in general coincides with live dates in those specific towns. And if you are courting colleges, there are ways to make money playing those gigs, rather than lose it. But of course, that is another time-consuming and possibly costly process. (Look into an organization called NACA if you haven't already)

Timing is everything. Plus, as you've discovered, this stuff is expensive. So if you're spending a couple of grand on a 3-6 month campaign or more, that's expensive but OK, and far less than par for the course. But if you're looking at sending two grand per week for six months, that's a whole 'nuther ball o' wax.

Check them out with former/current clients; proper vetting is the first step (spoken from someone who inked an out-of-town management deal that went absolutely NOWHERE).

GJ
Gregg Juke
Nocturnal Productions Music Group
Drum! Magazine Contributor
http://MightyNoStars.com

"He's about to learn the most important lesson in the music business-- 'Never trust people in the music business.' "

chris harris
speech impediment
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:31 pm
Location: Norman, OK
Contact:

Post by chris harris » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:14 pm

It makes a lot more sense if you're touring more extensively. Effective radio promo gets people out to shows. But, if that's all of the touring you've really got planned, I doubt that it would really be worth the investment.

Unfortunately, if that's all of the touring that you guys can pull off, you should probably forget what's normal or standard as far as PR and promotion go. Those systems are set up to offer the most benefit to touring bands. Simply getting spins or reviews is pretty useless if you're not touring pretty regularly. Obviously there are probably a few exceptions. But, if you're only able to do very limited touring, then your best bet for "blowing up" is through some kind of viral phenomenon or lucky break.

And, I'm pretty sure that I disagree about just showing up at a college radio station, or trying to just drop in and create a face-to-face with anyone in this business. It's 2013, and I don't know anyone short of some old timers who cares at all about conducting business face to face. In fact, like it or not, most younger people prefer EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. This is especially true if you're some unknown (to them) band just trying to get people to like you. These days, with millions of "bands" scrambling to be noticed, people like an opportunity to vet you online before committing to taking a meeting. If you just show up, you put people in an awkward spot. Not a good first impression.

witchfeet
gettin' sounds
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:30 am
Location: Chicago

Post by witchfeet » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:46 pm

Thanks for the responses.

Funny the buzz words were mentioned, I'm a freelance graphic designer and do a lot of branding work, so in my mind, much like candy bars, a band is somewhat, at the end of the day, another brand to push. :)

It's Planetary Group, they do radio promo, PR, and tour press. We could tour more if we so chose to, but at the same time, we've all been in bands that did a lot of the play for nothing with shows too far apart from each other plenty in the past, and we are not looking at doing stuff like this anymore if avoidable. The band needs to at least pay for itself, so strategizing is somewhat important to us. We have a lot of contacts in many parts of the country for setting up shows already from past and current bands we've played in that have toured, but we would like to be a little smarter about where and when we play.

Sooo, the radio campaign would be more a way to test the market with the music, get some needed exposure, and would allow us to theoretically work with colleges that did end up playing the tunes to set up shows, promote shows in the area, figure out exactly WHERE to tour etc. This is all under the assumption that the stuff gets adds, and then gets plays.

College radio campaigns are 8 weeks, so not super long. It's a little over a few grand after it's all said and done. Not a king's ransom, but enough that it makes "gambling" with the money a little iffy.

But hey, you only live once, right?

The Scum
moves faders with mind
Posts: 2745
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:26 pm
Location: Denver, CO
Contact:

Post by The Scum » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:09 pm

Having been inside college radio in the past, showing up cold is likely to be a nonstarter. At any given random hour, the only person there is a college student DJ, who has to keep the place on the air. They may not be able to break free to even really talk to you, let alone prepared to actually do anything for you.

If you can find out who the music and/or program directors are, and can reach them, you might find that they can set something up.

Of course, an agency probably has a rolodex full of such contacts, and knows how to work them. Not that you can't duplicate some of that effort by reading CMJ, and checking the station's websites.
"What fer?"
"Cat fur, to make kitten britches."

User avatar
apropos of nothing
dead but not forgotten
Posts: 2193
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 6:29 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Post by apropos of nothing » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:00 am


chris harris
speech impediment
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:31 pm
Location: Norman, OK
Contact:

Post by chris harris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:47 am

This article is 12 years old. I think you'd have to be crazy to get mixed up with this nonsense in 2013. It's MINDBLOWING how much money they want from you, just to be considered for gigs.

At Oklahoma University there is a Campus Activities Council (CAC) made up of students who control a budget and select bands for various university activities throughout the year. None of those students attend any of these "regional conferences" or care about seeing bands that are trying to buy their way to the top. They pick bands that are in Pitchfork or Stereogum and contact their booking agents directly.

That NACA organization, and the entire model/paradigm that they represent, are exploitative relics that need to just go away.

User avatar
Gregg Juke
cryogenically thawing
Posts: 3544
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:35 pm
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Post by Gregg Juke » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:45 am

That certainly is one perspective Chris, but again, the true truth is that NACA is still around because they are connected to lots of other programs that do use them. Yes, I looked into it before too, and it's amazingly expensive. But just assuming that "that dead business model is a no-go; I'll be a DIY Guy!!!!" is also a bit naive. Radio, Television, the Film Industry, Advertising, ASCAP & BMI, and all of the major labels and talent agencies still exist because they have resources to do so, and in a way, I believe that they are needed MORE now than ever before, despite the huge and obvious flaws in the system.

The Internet has been something of a rule-changer, but NOT the game-changer we had all hoped for. Now, instead of being lost in a sea of artists and bands of thousands, an up-and-coming act can be lost in a vast universal space ocean of millions and billions of merely adequate to outright awful no-one-should-ever-hear-them-ever bands, all thanks to the "democratic access" that the Web has provided.

Gate-keepers often suck, but we need some kind of gate-keepers lest the gates get trampled down and anarchy reigns (did you see "The Dark Knight?"... interesting message there). Anyway, in regards to music, there are long-cuts and short-cuts. No plan is foolproof, and short-cuts are often expensive. I don't work for NACA, nobody I know does, I have no horse in the race; I'm just saying that if a band wants to get paying, decent paying, gigs on the college level, that is one way to go. Expensive and a long-shot, granted, but not as long a shot as many other ways, like making a bunch of calls from your garage office and hoping for the best, or basing an understanding of bookings on what one school does in one town or region, or showing-up unannounced.

Another truism to note-- Not all of those paid gigs are the ones that people actually go to; sometimes there are organizations that just have money to spend (money that they need to spend in order to get more money to spend). The perfect gig that has all of the ammenities, good sound and lights, lots of people into your music that you want to play, that you also get paid a decent amount of money for your time and energy, well, let's just say that those gigs are rare...

Anyway, to the OP-- Do your research. Take time, and make wise decisions. Maybe now is not the time to do this, until more of the puzzle pieces are in-place. You said you've already experienced low-pay/no-pay, poorly routed touring. Maybe wait until things gel better to change that picture.

Chris is right about the charts though-- it's not a guarantee of or to anything. It's a piece of the puzzle, and believe me, it's really cool to see your work go up the national and international charts, but it's just the beginning of the road, not the end. If you're not ready or able to put a lot of time and money into touring, it will be a great experience and give you some fun bragging rights, and it may help sell some product on the Web, but that's about it. My experience in this area may be subjective, but it comes from having worked in radio years ago, to currently helping people in a few specific genres do indie promotion and publicity, and as someone who has had a few records on the charts myself (both my own and one that I promoted). It's a great goal in and of itself, just to get the music out there and have people hear it and get positive responses. But it does not automatically equal dollars (after selling a couple thousand downloads, I think the grand total came to somewhere in the neighborhood of $75), and it can be expensive to create a proper working campaign, so think it through and make sure that it's right for your group's situation. It is one of those enduring realities of the music business (Internet or not)-- If you can't physically back-up your radio and other promotional efforts with touring, it's difficult to connect with audiences (sell product, get downloads, continue getting better and more high-paying gigs). It's a symbiotic relationship and all of the moving parts need to be there.

New age, new world order DIY what-have-you-not-- It still takes a certain specific sequence of well-orchestrated events to break a band nationally and internationally in a viable, financially successful and sustainable way. The wild-card exceptions prove the rule, not the other way around.
GJ
Gregg Juke
Nocturnal Productions Music Group
Drum! Magazine Contributor
http://MightyNoStars.com

"He's about to learn the most important lesson in the music business-- 'Never trust people in the music business.' "

chris harris
speech impediment
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:31 pm
Location: Norman, OK
Contact:

Post by chris harris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:48 am

Gregg Juke wrote:It still takes a certain specific sequence of well-orchestrated events to break a band nationally and internationally in a viable, financially successful and sustainable way. The wild-card exceptions prove the rule, not the other way around.
I don't disagree with this at all. My point is that the well orchestrated events have changed a bit.
Gregg Juke wrote:That certainly is one perspective Chris, but again, the true truth is that NACA is still around because they are connected to lots of other programs that do use them. Yes, I looked into it before too, and it's amazingly expensive.
I'll admit that I made some assumptions about the OP's goals based on the type of music that they play. I made the assumption that they're after a certain type of gig. I know that NACA, and every other pay-to-play scheme that ever made their priority to make money FROM musicians, rather than genuinely helping make money FOR musicians, exist for a reason. And, I guess that's a fine path for some bands and some people. But, I personally believe that those paths are a bit distasteful and predatory. I recommend that good, hardworking bands who believe that a sustainable career can be made while maintaining a connection to punk/alternative/indie/whatever ethos, explore options with smaller, less corporate, and much more personal attention oriented professionals.
Gregg Juke wrote:But just assuming that "that dead business model is a no-go; I'll be a DIY Guy!!!!" is also a bit naive.
This is a pretty lame mischaracterization of my opinion on this. I'd rather spend $10,000 with a cool indie promoter (assuming they WOULD work with me) who is delivering personal attention and a service tailored to my band/music, and has a track record of helping to break similar artists, than spend $1000 submitting for a chance at lame gigs.

Different strokes.... But, I'm obviously not saying that "the NACA is lame, ergo fuck the system!" I'm saying that there is a definitely a difference between how different segments of the system operate. And, in 2013, if you're an "indie" band, and your definition of success is being mentioned in respected "indie" publications or touring and playing cool indie venues like The Middle East, First Ave., Empty Bottle, Kilby Court, etc., then you're more likely to land good college gigs that you'll enjoy by following a sequence of well orchestrated moves that make more sense for your definition of success.

I'm sure the NACA helps a lot of bands. But, it's a HUGE longshot that gigs like that lead to any kind of sustainable career. I'll take my chances investing my money in smaller businesses, who I believe are more reliable arbiters of taste. There are some companies, like the one the OP is considering working with, that it's an honor to represented by. NACA seems a lot more like TAXI or Sonicbids, just with much higher price tags.
Gregg Juke wrote:basing an understanding of bookings on what one school does in one town or region
This is kind of a lame potshot, too. I'm basing my understanding on the kinds of gigs that get booked for good bands, that college kids who go to shows actually give a damn about seeing. Maybe the NACA still helps place random bands with no buzz or no following on lame stages at "Howdy Week!" or whatever... But, if you aspire to play good gigs at colleges, for good money, in front of audiences that give a shit, there is another route to take. It still costs money. And, it's still a long shot. And, it's still hard work. But, it gets you the kind of show where you actually get your band's name on the poster instead of "Also, LIVE MUSIC!" I've played a few of those gigs at colleges where you're just some random band playing music to people who don't really care, and making a few hundred bucks for it. It's really fucking depressing. In the 90s, that might have meant some opportunities for your band. But, college kids now don't give a fuck. If you're trying to break your band in "indie" rock, you've got a better chance of having fun, and playing shows that actually get you USEFUL exposure, if you work with a good booking agent, and try to get on some of the college shows that are shows, and not just a stage as part of a bigger event.
Gregg Juke wrote:Another truism to note-- Not all of those paid gigs are the ones that people actually go to; sometimes there are organizations that just have money to spend (money that they need to spend in order to get more money to spend). The perfect gig that has all of the ammenities, good sound and lights, lots of people into your music that you want to play, that you also get paid a decent amount of money for your time and energy, well, let's just say that those gigs are rare...
They're especially rare if you go about it all wrong and don't recognize that there are different approaches that work better depending on your goals and your definition of success. I just assume that most bands that consider themselves "indie" wouldn't have much interest in playing gigs in front of audiences who don't care, for some "organization", just because the better gigs are rare or more difficult to come by.

Most of the stuff that you posted that I deleted is stuff that I just agree with. We really don't disagree about much on this subject. In fact, if you hadn't made the assumption about me being "DIY", I may not have even responded.

witchfeet
gettin' sounds
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:30 am
Location: Chicago

Post by witchfeet » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:54 am

Thanks for all the comments so far. It's extremely helpful. I guess to be pretty straight forward, if the campaign showed results, we'd make arrangements to tour around those results if it seems worthwhile. We do a lot of regional shows outside of Chicago, and do quite well out of town, so in a perfect world, if things are happening as far as getting some listeners and fans in the eastern half of the US, we will go play those places.

The horribly routed, no pay crap touring we did was back when we were young morons in long gone bands of our youth. :) Those days did payoff with a lot of contacts over the years though, so we don't always have to go into booking a city blindly, we usually have a hook-up of some sort these days. The singer and guitarist in this band is also on the road extensively throughout the year with his other band who are beginning to do quite well, so our touring capabilities contacts continue to get better as he makes more buds in his travels. One step at a time I suppose.

At the end of the day, all that being said, for us it's really all about just getting the music out to more people. We don't expect to really ever make "job-type" money, or become some huge juggernaut indie band. We really just want to get some exposure, see what happens, and go out and play some well attended and promoted out of town shows, with as little out of pocket expense as possible. We first and foremost do this for fun, and as a way to contribute culturally to society. And, as I'm sure most artists feel whether they admit it or not, being recognized for your work is always nice. I'd be stoked to know kids are out there hearing and hopefully enjoying our songs.

chris harris
speech impediment
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:31 pm
Location: Norman, OK
Contact:

Post by chris harris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:38 am

Yeah, the only reason I mentioned more touring is because regardless of what kind of PR you're spending your money on, you're way more likely to get press/spins if your band has upcoming shows in the markets where the PR is taking place.

A couple thousand bucks is a small price to pay for getting your band on the radar of CMJ stations. Even in some places where it doesn't result in airplay, that may change when you actually do have a show booked in that area.

Good luck!

witchfeet
gettin' sounds
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:30 am
Location: Chicago

Post by witchfeet » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:51 am

chris harris wrote:Yeah, the only reason I mentioned more touring is because regardless of what kind of PR you're spending your money on, you're way more likely to get press/spins if your band has upcoming shows in the markets where the PR is taking place.

A couple thousand bucks is a small price to pay for getting your band on the radar of CMJ stations. Even in some places where it doesn't result in airplay, that may change when you actually do have a show booked in that area.

Good luck!
Thanks dude! I guess the way it was outlined to me by Planetary would be radio campaign first and foremost, assuming there is play then following up with touring based on that information w/ PR in tandem with the tour. They specifically said in our situation, do not tour during the actual 8 week campaign, to tour afterwards, hence us not doing any long runs until December or so. We'll be doing some weekends over the next few months while the campaign runs just to keep us working.

chris harris
speech impediment
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:31 pm
Location: Norman, OK
Contact:

Post by chris harris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:05 pm

That sounds cool. Check back in and let us know how things go with Planetary.

witchfeet
gettin' sounds
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:30 am
Location: Chicago

Post by witchfeet » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:29 pm

Will do, I guess everyone in the band is 100% in at this point, so we'll be doing the campaign, probably in October/November. I'll report back. ;)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 53 guests