Effectiveness of GOBOs in a small room

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Matt C.
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Effectiveness of GOBOs in a small room

Post by Matt C. » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:28 pm

For you acoustics gurus out there, I'm wondering about strategies for sound isolation within a relatively small recording space. My live tracking room is a basement, about 24'x10' with 7' ceilings. I'd like to be able to do live vocals (or at least decent sounding scratch vocals), but in a small space with a loud band the bleed is almost always overwhelming and nasty sounding.

My question is, if I were to build some big fancy gobo's that could surround the singer on 3 sides, do you expect that would actually help a lot with bleed? or is there so much loud sound bouncing around in that small space that it's going to get in the vocal mic no matter what? (the room is treated with panels of 703 along parts of the walls but still sounds somewhat lively)

any tips would be great. thanks

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Nick Sevilla
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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:59 pm

Try recording the band separate from the singer.

First the band, then the singer.

Not "the best live thing" I know, however, if anyone says "overdubs"
you're screwed.

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Post by Matt C. » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:19 pm

most of the time I do end up recording the vocals separately, but I've had a lot of projects lately where people really want to do either live vocals, or at least scratch vocals. I'd like to be able to accommodate if possible. Right now, even if I just put up a scratch vocal mic for cues and have no intent to keep the track, the bleed while the band is playing is so atrocious that it is really hard to listen to. It's sort of a bummer to have to keep telling them "I swear your record won't actually sound like it was recorded inside a metal garbage can".

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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:32 pm

In that case you have to not call the vocals "scratch".

Just do the whole thing live.

If you are able to, or the bands have the budget, try to find a better recording space. Even going to a modest but well built studio can make a huge difference.

Cheers
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Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:50 pm

I'd treat all 4 sides around the singer. Stuff bouncing off the back wall and into the mic can be as bad as the stuff bleeding in from the sides. Try building a vocal booth out of gobos. Make sure there's a window in one of them so the singer can see the band. You're mic choice will also make a huge difference. SM7B, M88 or 421 are all good choices here but any full range dynamic with good rejection will be useful.

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Post by JWL » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:39 pm

Gobos will definitely help, though there will likely still be some bleed. Remember that microphones tend to "hear" differently than our ears do.

If possible, set the singer up with his/her back to a corner, a lot of thick absorption in the corner behind the singer (ie, bass trapping), and 2 gobos in front of the singer and the mic.

Also, use the "deaf" part of the microphone (where the null is, ie, the rear of the mic if it is cardioid) to your advantage....

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Post by cale w » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:49 pm

Gobos will definitely help. If your main concern is a "listenable" scratch vocal, it's totally possible even in a small space. What mice are you using now? Some that I would recommend: Beta 58 (you see this all the time in live radio w/ the band vocals), Sennheiser 421, Electrovoice 660 (very tight pattern, pretty much no proximity effect), and as a wildcard, the AT Pro37. The specs say that guy is only cardioid, but I swear it is deaf to the sides, at least in my usage. Plus I find it has a really neat casually-hyped vocal tone.

Anyway, yeah gobos. But mic selection is what is really going to serve you well.

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Post by vvv » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:23 am

+1 on the Beta 58.

Also, make sure that you have the singer "eat the mic" and no compression going in; pass-filtering might help, also.

This not only allows you to have the gain as low as possible, but any distraction of "bad-sounding vocal track" will be as much from exaggeration of the singer's voice, as from bleed.
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Post by Matt C. » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:21 pm

usually I use a MD421 for this, although I've tried other mics (beyer M88, EV re10) with more or less the same results. The size and layout of the room will make it hard to build a properly enclosed booth out of gobos, but I can put the singer up against a (treated) wall, with 2 gobos blocking the direct sound from the band, with just the back side open.

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Post by losthighway » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:25 am

To reiterate what a lot of people have mentioned: behind the singer's back is often the most important spot for absorption.

I learned this after several sessions of building playforts out of gobos and halfheartedly imagining all of the bleed to be so directional that I was deflecting bullets.... total nonsense of course.

Often the best "gobo" is the null in the polar pattern of your mic. The worst bleed usually is reflections coming back over your singer's shoulder straight down the barrel of your chosen mic. If things hitting the wall behind them get sucked up more by absorption you will be reducing a ton of cymbal hash. The unavoidable lows bleeding in can then be tamed by a high pass filter. The challenge is seeing if you can add compression to the vocals without bringing the remaining bleed way up, or if you can duck the points where there are no vocals without the mix sounding like it changes shape every time the singer starts up again.

In these situations it's never going to be ideal. But getting it workable can make for a whole different kind of session.

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Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:01 am

losthighway wrote: The challenge is seeing if you can add compression to the vocals without bringing the remaining bleed way up, or if you can duck the points where there are no vocals without the mix sounding like it changes shape every time the singer starts up again.
Yep. Every once in a while this can be awesome though. There's a live recording of Nina Simone at the Village Gate playing House Of The Rising Sun where they very obviously pull her mic down between verses. It almost works like a zoom shot or focus pulled scene does in film. The sense of space and perspective around her voice and the band is constantly shifting. It's obviously not intentional or even desired but it accidentally works so well. It really puts the listener off balance.
Sorry, slightly off topic. Carry on.

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Post by blungo2 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:18 pm

Try an M-88 for scratch vocals?

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Post by kevin206 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:31 pm

I recorded a rehearsal in the garage...concrete floor, 8' plywood ceiling, large 56 Ford and was amazed at the low level of bleed in the vocal mic. The mic was a dynamic and the singer was facing the drummer, but only about 3 feet away. When he sang the volume difference was good enough that I could add effects to the vocal without noticeably affecting anything else. The mic DID get a little more guitar than I wanted. It was a Twin aimed at the back of his knees.

The singer wasn't backed in a corner, so he had some open air behind him, but some absorption behind would probably do the same thing.

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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:27 pm

One of the problems with this approach that I've found (and it ties into Nick's suggestion)-- It's not the "crappy-sounding scratch take" that is the problem, it's what will be left of the scratch take in your "keeper" vocal when you go for that. Bleed doesn't only go one way, and some of those mikes, no matter how loud the band, will pick-up screaming scratch vox. Then, you could wind-up with "ghosting" when you go for a real take. If the next bunch of takes aren't spot-on with the scratch track, it can get pretty funky (not in a good way).

It helps if the singer is well-rehearsed and the parts are already worked-out, and he/she sings it basically the same every time...

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Post by floid » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:07 am

^^^ yep. this can be a particular problem if the band goes quiet and is relying on the scratch as a cue. not to mention the heat of the moment off key wails that always seem to come during what should have been the keeper take.
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