Bellari RP220 With Quiet Channel?
Bellari RP220 With Quiet Channel?
Hi everyone,
I picked up a Bellari RP220 for cheap used and unfortunately channel two is really
quiet compared to the other. So quiet it barely registers on an external DI meter
when tapping the mic. I have tried replacing the tube and the op amp, but to no avail.
The pad still works, making it even quieter, though at first I was hoping it may have
somehow been stuck, permanently engaged. I can still get the meters on the pre
to clip in the red, but again the output is still just a sad whisper.
I really do like the sound of this pre (as far as budget tube pres go) and would love
be able to press it back into service. So far I've been unsuccessful trying to locate
a schematic. What should I try next? Suggestions, advice, please! :3 I'm willing
to break this thing in hopes of fixing it. At the very least, it should make for a
good learning experience. :P (While I wish I did, I don't have the dough to just get
rid of it and buy something else.)
Here's what I'm looking at:
I picked up a Bellari RP220 for cheap used and unfortunately channel two is really
quiet compared to the other. So quiet it barely registers on an external DI meter
when tapping the mic. I have tried replacing the tube and the op amp, but to no avail.
The pad still works, making it even quieter, though at first I was hoping it may have
somehow been stuck, permanently engaged. I can still get the meters on the pre
to clip in the red, but again the output is still just a sad whisper.
I really do like the sound of this pre (as far as budget tube pres go) and would love
be able to press it back into service. So far I've been unsuccessful trying to locate
a schematic. What should I try next? Suggestions, advice, please! :3 I'm willing
to break this thing in hopes of fixing it. At the very least, it should make for a
good learning experience. :P (While I wish I did, I don't have the dough to just get
rid of it and buy something else.)
Here's what I'm looking at:
- Snarl 12/8
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Start with a visual inspection. I can't count the number of electrical problems I've solved by just spotting something that looked disconnected, bent, fried, etc.
Especially check all moving parts. Bypass with a little jumper wire with (or without, I suppose) alligator clips everything you think you safely can. Especially the switches and knobs.
Another thing to try is poking at the circuit with something that doesn't conduct electricity, like the eraser at the end of a pencil. (But be very careful where the metal around the eraser touches. Better yet, cover it with electrical tape. Try poking at solder connections while playing something through the channel and see if you get a burst of signal through. Then "reflow" that solder connection.
After that, swap as many things from the working channel to the non-working channel as you can, 1 by 1. The underlying plan here is to eliminate variables. The tubes are obvious candidates (and something that's most likely to break or wear out) the IC's look socketed, so go ahead and carefully swap them out.
Try to "do no harm" (nothing easily undoable) as deep into the process as possible. Leave the cutting and bonking on things until you're out of other ideas.
Especially check all moving parts. Bypass with a little jumper wire with (or without, I suppose) alligator clips everything you think you safely can. Especially the switches and knobs.
Another thing to try is poking at the circuit with something that doesn't conduct electricity, like the eraser at the end of a pencil. (But be very careful where the metal around the eraser touches. Better yet, cover it with electrical tape. Try poking at solder connections while playing something through the channel and see if you get a burst of signal through. Then "reflow" that solder connection.
After that, swap as many things from the working channel to the non-working channel as you can, 1 by 1. The underlying plan here is to eliminate variables. The tubes are obvious candidates (and something that's most likely to break or wear out) the IC's look socketed, so go ahead and carefully swap them out.
Try to "do no harm" (nothing easily undoable) as deep into the process as possible. Leave the cutting and bonking on things until you're out of other ideas.
Snarl 12/8 thank you! That's some sound advice! I'll give it a run through. :)
edit:
Something I just noticed, and I'm no electrical engineer, anyone know if these are to be left blank? (The one on top says R66)
edit:
Something I just noticed, and I'm no electrical engineer, anyone know if these are to be left blank? (The one on top says R66)
Last edited by caverun on Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- digitaldrummer
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- moves faders with mind
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With a working and a borken channel sitting side-by-side, I'd step through the circuit stage by stage, comparing them until I found where the signal got lost.
There's a start on tracing out a schem here:
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=16021.0
If B+ is stout, be careful poking around in there. What's the voltage rating on the big cap? Only one hand inside. Forget the pencil and get a wooden chopstick.
There's a start on tracing out a schem here:
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=16021.0
If B+ is stout, be careful poking around in there. What's the voltage rating on the big cap? Only one hand inside. Forget the pencil and get a wooden chopstick.
"What fer?"
"Cat fur, to make kitten britches."
"Cat fur, to make kitten britches."
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So - good news and bad news:
Good news - the two power transformers are being used to step the voltage down, then back up. The tubes get a good, proper, high voltage supply, as the 250V rating on the cap would indicate.
The bad news: there's ~250VDC lurking in there. Bleed the B+ rail with a 100K resistor, and verify it's bled before you go in with both hands.
Good news - the two power transformers are being used to step the voltage down, then back up. The tubes get a good, proper, high voltage supply, as the 250V rating on the cap would indicate.
The bad news: there's ~250VDC lurking in there. Bleed the B+ rail with a 100K resistor, and verify it's bled before you go in with both hands.
"What fer?"
"Cat fur, to make kitten britches."
"Cat fur, to make kitten britches."
- Snarl 12/8
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Don't worry about "missing" parts on the PCB unless they're different Left channel from Right. Remember, that working channel is your key to finding the problem. Use a magnifier and good light, if you can.
Edit: Oh, and if me and Mr. Scum are giving you conflicting advice re: electronic repair, go with what he says, he's actually not a hack at this stuff.
Edit: Oh, and if me and Mr. Scum are giving you conflicting advice re: electronic repair, go with what he says, he's actually not a hack at this stuff.
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So I don't mean to be teeriably alarmist about the high voltage there.
But I do mean that I want you to understand that it can be dangerous, and help you understand how to deal with it. But many internet posts tell you to "be safe", but fall short when it comes to telling you what actually goes into being safe.
So here's my attempt (EMRR, AshcatIT, the esteemed Mr Williams and others, please chime in and correct me if I'm giving bad advice! Seriously, in my day gig, I've mostly escaped with 5V world for the 3.3V one, and see the 1.8 V world on the near horizon.). This is not meant to be an exhaustive exploration of the subject, but a handful of things that have served me well. If this all reads as gibberish,take the device to a real repairman. I'm assuming that since you're posting here, you're aware that there's some danger, and that you're responsible for your own actions.
There's nothing like having the cold sweats while working on a high voltage circuit to make things even more complicated.
There are two situations to be aware of.
First, when the circuit is on, there's high voltage in there, and it can refill itself indefinitely. If you're poking around while it's live, the common wisdom os to use only one hand ("keep one hand in your back pocket" as the greybeards say). That way, even if you touch the live circuit, it won't ever go from your left hand to your right hand, via your heart.
I've got a set of extra long (maybe 6") banana-grabber probes that help with that situation - I can position them carefully, one at a time, with one hand, to take readings with a multimeter or scope. Similarly, grabber hooks and probes mean you can latch onto something, then adjust other things, keeping with the "one hand" principle.
Second, after it's off, those big caps might still hold some charge...and they can magically refill themselves (google for "dielectric absorption" if you don't take my word for it). So the common practice is to put a high value resistor (100K is reasonable, 1M will take longer to discharge) from the B+ line to ground (effectively across the leads of the big cap in this case).
It's a "measure twice, cut once" situation - don't guess whether the circuit is discharged!
Since you've already been poking around in there with it off, and haven't reported sparks/smoke/ozone smell, it might already have that resistor permanently installed. The way to check is to put a multimeter between B+ and ground. When you turn the circuit off, if there's a bleeder resistor, B+ should creep towards ground...a minute or so after switching off, it should read less than 1 Volt.
My opinion is that the old practice of discharging tube circuits by corwbarring B+ to ground with a screwdriver is dangerous...other folks may want to argue the other side...I much prefer having a highish resistor permanently installed. It only costs a tiny bit of current while the circuit is on, and helps keep it safe while it's off.
But I do mean that I want you to understand that it can be dangerous, and help you understand how to deal with it. But many internet posts tell you to "be safe", but fall short when it comes to telling you what actually goes into being safe.
So here's my attempt (EMRR, AshcatIT, the esteemed Mr Williams and others, please chime in and correct me if I'm giving bad advice! Seriously, in my day gig, I've mostly escaped with 5V world for the 3.3V one, and see the 1.8 V world on the near horizon.). This is not meant to be an exhaustive exploration of the subject, but a handful of things that have served me well. If this all reads as gibberish,take the device to a real repairman. I'm assuming that since you're posting here, you're aware that there's some danger, and that you're responsible for your own actions.
There's nothing like having the cold sweats while working on a high voltage circuit to make things even more complicated.
There are two situations to be aware of.
First, when the circuit is on, there's high voltage in there, and it can refill itself indefinitely. If you're poking around while it's live, the common wisdom os to use only one hand ("keep one hand in your back pocket" as the greybeards say). That way, even if you touch the live circuit, it won't ever go from your left hand to your right hand, via your heart.
I've got a set of extra long (maybe 6") banana-grabber probes that help with that situation - I can position them carefully, one at a time, with one hand, to take readings with a multimeter or scope. Similarly, grabber hooks and probes mean you can latch onto something, then adjust other things, keeping with the "one hand" principle.
Second, after it's off, those big caps might still hold some charge...and they can magically refill themselves (google for "dielectric absorption" if you don't take my word for it). So the common practice is to put a high value resistor (100K is reasonable, 1M will take longer to discharge) from the B+ line to ground (effectively across the leads of the big cap in this case).
It's a "measure twice, cut once" situation - don't guess whether the circuit is discharged!
Since you've already been poking around in there with it off, and haven't reported sparks/smoke/ozone smell, it might already have that resistor permanently installed. The way to check is to put a multimeter between B+ and ground. When you turn the circuit off, if there's a bleeder resistor, B+ should creep towards ground...a minute or so after switching off, it should read less than 1 Volt.
My opinion is that the old practice of discharging tube circuits by corwbarring B+ to ground with a screwdriver is dangerous...other folks may want to argue the other side...I much prefer having a highish resistor permanently installed. It only costs a tiny bit of current while the circuit is on, and helps keep it safe while it's off.
"What fer?"
"Cat fur, to make kitten britches."
"Cat fur, to make kitten britches."
Thank you so much for the elaboration! I'm just getting into soldering, bought my first breadboard, etc. I much prefer to make it to my greybeard days. I'll have a friend do this one, watch over his shoulder, and ask questions this time around. I'll be keeping a hand in my back pocket from here on out though. Might as well start out with good habits.
Again, many thanks for the in-depth reply.
Again, many thanks for the in-depth reply.
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