Separation

[dennisjames]

So I've just completed the first round of mixes for a couple songs to an upcoming release and again, find myself baffled by a familiar phenomenon. When I listen to my mixes at my mix station, I'm delighted with what I hear. When I listen to reference CD's at my mix station, I'm even further convinced that I've nailed my mix. Because what I hear when I listen to my favorite recordings seems like too much separation compared to my own mixes. All the elements in my own mixes seem to exists in the same cohesive space and I really dig what I'm hearing. I high-five myself for a job well done and marvel at how quickly and confidently I've done my job and move on.

Fast forward ...

I take said mixes for a little road trip, drop in a current favorite CD (Joe Henry produced Over the Rhine -- Meet Me at the Edge of the World) for reference, pull up my own mix making sure I have the level matched and voila, the elements in my mixes are harder to discern, the vocals seem too out in front, the edges I thought I'd carefully left exposed seem dull and I'm scratching my head in frustrated confusion. Particularly, in that the above mentioned reference CD happens to lean way more like my own mixes compared to others I've used. Yet, I'm still left wondering if I should stop trying to put everything in the same space and make my own mixes less cohesive and more separated.

Anyone else experience this? Any advice? Or is all just a matter of taste? I just cringe at the thought of someone listening to my music while cruising down the interstate never hearing all the cool shit I wanted them to hear.

[joninc]

first off, i feel your pain.

mixing is all smoke and mirrors. very challenging and elusive. i am always beating
my head against it. feeling i have arrived somewhere only to be put in my place by
some great album that blows it away.

when you say "put everything in the same space" do you mean using a common room reverb on a lot of the tracks within a given song? what elements would you use this verb on - just vocals? or drums? acoustic guitars? pianos?

you are setting the bar really high with a Joe Henry production as a reference (which is great) - not only are his musical tastes and instincts really impeccable, he has always partnered with brilliant engineers who elevate the artistic visions (husky hoskulds, lanois and on his more recent productions, ryan freeland). and then there's the all star bands - jay bellerose, eric haywood, patrick warren ... they make the songs really dynamic and exciting to listen to.

so there's a lot of levels in which your reference album is the CREAM OF THE CROP in terms of songs, production, players, engineers, mixing and mastering (gavin larrsen).

what areas are your productions lacking any of the above?

that's where you can focus your energy. it's a thousand small decisions that culminate in the final product.

also - getting feedback from other mix engineers you respect can be invaluable.

when you are really close to something it can be really hard to see (hear) things objectively.

i notice that this ref album is very natural in a lot of ways - reverbs are quite subtle and i'd wager that a lot of the elements are dry so i don't think he's finding some sweet reverb and send bits of lots of tracks to it. probably it's primarily affecting vocals and maybe some ambient textures that float around in the back.

i am continuously noticing how so many great albums are WAY DRIER that i remember. that adds SO MUCH MORE CLARITY and focus to the overall sound.

also - the muslcal elements are really panned wide and featured loudly (electric hard left, accordion hard right etc...) against the vocal in the center. acoustic guitars are loud! the whole soundscape breathes a lot (not a ton of audible compression going on on individual elements - atleast to my ears).

also the age old thing of "is your room treated"? how accurately are you hearing your mixes in your work space?

if your vocals are not sitting in the mix as well as you'd like, maybe there's a hole in the mids in your monitors or just acoustically in your space. you compensate by pushing them up, and in other spaces they just seem too loud.

you're on the right track - all the best in the hunt...

[dennisjames]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Yes, by space, I do mean the verb. But not everything gets hit with it. For panned sounds, I pan the verb 180 degrees on those elements keeping the verb on center sounds centered. Less verb to bring the sound forward and more to push it back. And I've learned to cut way back on how much I use. Although, this particular project has some songs where heavy is part of the aesthetic.

I have solicited some feedback from another engineer but perhaps a couple of extra ears could help. It could be opening a can of worms but it might be nice to get a handful of observations.

And to be fair, I did refer to a pretty amazing recording in the example I listed. However, I could list several recordings that render the same observation. And like I said, I feel like the Over The Rhine has a more blended sound than many others. And at the mix station, I feel like my mix stands up. It's in the car over road noise that I feel like my mixes get lost causing me to question my choice in going for a blended sound.

With regard to compression, I tend to use a pretty light touch. A bit on the vox to keep them present. A bit on the drums both for effect and for consistency. A touch on the bass. I did use a tad more on this batch than I have in the past as I feel like I'm getting more confident in applying it but it's probably still rather light than the most.

My room is treated and I think it's pretty even. I'm going to check it again now you mention the possible hole in the mids.

And the hunt goes on.

[losthighway]

One thing that often helps is cutting unnecessary frequencies. Sometimes cutting a ton of lows out of everything but the kick and the bass can open things up. Some things don't sound all that different low-passed (like bass guitar), but somehow cutting it frees up energy.

I know what you mean though, in the control room sometimes other "good" mixes sound way too separated, and there seems to be no collective power or unity, and then you hear it on a regular stereo next to your own mix that feels relatively muddy. I think part of this is the nature of studio monitors, they're built to be a magnifying glass. Sometimes this makes you feel like certain elements are fairly present, but then they disappear on a typical system.

I think no matter how good someone's listening environment is they have to do something predictive that goes beyond what their senses are telling them, or maybe moreso they need to make decisions based on what a "good mix" is all about in their listening environment, which maybe isn't the same as feeling like something "rocks".

Mixing- where our tail chasing can begin after watching the band have their own labyrinth.

[vvv]

Another suggestion is, don't just rely on yer "mix station".

Check yer mixes on headphones, in the car, the bathroom, over a P.A., at yer friend's house ...

[dennisjames]

For the sake of my own sanity, I'm going to try and "replicate" the more separated type of mix on these songs and see what happens. I'll look at being more aggressive with cutting frequencies as well as some of the other suggestions.

But I also got to thinking, does anyone offer a tutoring type of approach to mixing? I certainly can't afford to hire a mix engineer for the project but it could really cool to get some constructive instruction.

[Snarl 12/8]

If you post your mixes here, you'll definitely get some suggestions and/or feedback.

[dennisjames]

Well, here's a link to a couple of them but they've got some "home mastering" on them which may distort the picture. I threw them up so I could start booking a tour and needed current samples for bookers. Now I've got to get this thing finished in time to have merch!

http://www.societyofbrokensouls.com/lis ... ken-souls/

I'd be super grateful for some constructive feedback.

Thanks in advance.

[Gregg Juke]

I can't get your site/songs to load right now (bandwidth problem on my end, I'm quite sure). I will try to give them a proper listen later. But a quick thing-- with all of the right questions asked and good advice already given, and with the great info that is yet to come, and all of the awesome topics already covered in the TOMB archives, I don't hear a lot about making your mix station more like what other people might listen on (different stereo speakers, headphones, car speakers, boombox speakers, iPod speakers, etc., etc.); in other words, a little less like a sterile mix environment. Don't get me wrong-- you need the treated room, the trapped corners, the nice, flat, even-sounding set of monitors in the perfect position. But you also need a few (or even many) other options to bounce your mixes around on, and then you can maybe find your common denominator issues without having to go out in the cold to the car, next door to your friend's house, etc. And, if you're going to use reference tracks (which you definitely should), you should know them cold, and how they sound/should sound on your speakers. That way, you really are comparing apples to apples (well, in any event, it will be a lot closer than apples to pineapples). In our control room, we have seven sets of speakers. This is something I insisted on despite the "you don't need all that" attitude of my studio mate. The more you can combine the benefits of a pro (or as close to) mixing environment with a room that lets you approximate "real world" listening, the closer you will be to your goals without constantly second-guessing yourself...

OK, that wasn't a "quick thing" (lol), but an important one, I think...

GJ

[drumsound]

In addition to what has been said, you might consider having a song mastered, and then do you comparison. Our own More Space Echo is a great, affordable and quick mastering engineer. Send him a song and see what he does, and how the mastered version holds up.

[dennisjames]

I do check my mixes on 2 different sets of headphones but I should go beyond that and try to create more environments. It's this very notion that sends me to car but you're right, it's damn cold lately.

And MSE mastered my last project assuring me my mixes were fine. He's a great partner and I'm sure I'll use him again on this project. I think I'm just at a point where I want my mixes to drastically improve in this particular area. It's like my ear is ahead of my skill to find what I'm "hearing".

[JWL]

In addition to the great advice above, I have a few thoughts. The first song sounds really good (listening as I type). The vocals are mixed a little hotter than what I would do for music like this, but that's a style thing more than anything. If you mix vocals that hot, you best have an outstanding, world class vocalist in my opinion. Very few singers are on that level. Yes I'm super picky about vocalists.

Some complimentary EQ can often help things stand out a little more (ie, cutting and boosting the same frequency on competing sounds), giving each element of the song its own space.

Also, I have really only realized in the past year or two how utterly essential volume automation is. Using a real fader of some sort to write automation has made this SO much easier for me. This is a great tool to ensure that one element of the song takes center stage at all times. For a fabulous example of this, listen to anything Andy Wallace mixed.

Your mix sounds really good overall.... you are at least 90% there.

[JWL]

The instruments on these songs sound fantastic, by the way. Great acoustic guitar sound, and the strings on the second song are great.

After hearing 2 songs, my opinion that more attention needs to be paid to the vocals has been reinfored. Some more attention to EQ to get them to sit better, and then tuck them back into the music a bit further is what I'd do.

[dennisjames]

Thanks for taking a listen and giving me some feedback. While I do some automated fader rides, I'm probably under utilizing this tool. I find that I tend to get a nice ball park/middle ground and then just move them +/- 1 to 2 db throughout the song. Maybe taking a more dramatic approach could help.

And the more I got to thinking about this last night, the more I think I should re-visit my eq decisions across the board. With your suggestion on the brain, I'll start with the vox. And given that the vocalist in question are myself and my wife, we're stuck with ourselves I tend to lean towards tucking them back further but she usually requests them more in front to keep the emphasis on the lyrics. If I can develop my eq'ing chops a littler more, perhaps we can both get our way. It's funny, I was listening to recordings by both James McMurtry and Buddy and Julie Miller where I was amazed at how far back the vox were in the mix yet so obviously audible across listening environments. Then I listen to my mixes and they feel a bit ham-fisted.

I'll also take your advice and look up some Andy Wallace.

Thanks again!

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i'm just on a laptop here, but dennis if you want to send a mix or two over, i'm happy to check them out in the studio and/or whip up a quick test master.