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first reflection /sidewalls
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supafuzz
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Joined: 07 May 2003
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Location: Beacon NY

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:57 am    Post subject: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

I've been reading about not treating sidewall/first reflection points because of how the brain uses this information. It seems contrary to a lot of other information. So has anyone done this with good results?
Quote:
4. The lateral early reflections (those that arrive at the mix position within 50 ms. of the direct sound from the side walls) should be as loud and spectrally and temporally accurate as possible (i.e. no RPG-type diffusers and no Sonex® or other wall treatments). Floor and ceiling early reflections should be damped/diffused as much as is reasonable.
Dave Moulton as well as others have said this.
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rhythm ranch
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

Curious where your quote came from.
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norton
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

Yes. It's a good way to go. Esp if the control room is already well treated.
Not a night and day difference...but a very comfortable shift.
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supafuzz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: quote Reply with quote

The quote is from my old music teacher Dave Moulton who went on to become somewhat of an authority on sound.
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supafuzz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

norton wrote:
Yes. It's a good way to go. Esp if the control room is already well treated.
Not a night and day difference...but a very comfortable shift.


heading to the studio now with screw gun in hand!
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vvv
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

supafuzz wrote:


heading to the studio now with screw gun in hand!


Izzat code? Twisted Evil
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supafuzz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

no code......just my Makita drill!! Took off the side wall absorbers and put them behind the speakers and things sounded a little better..
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rhythm ranch
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: quote Reply with quote

supafuzz wrote:
The quote is from my old music teacher Dave Moulton who went on to become somewhat of an authority on sound.

Understood, but is it from a specific document or book (of which there might be copies)?
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Randyman...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

I'd have to assume there is a lower limit (distance from the sidewall) that this will become a bad idea? As in: Most bedroom monitoring environments where the 1st sidewall reflection is less than 10ms or so (and almost equal in amplitude to the direct sound)?


The quote specifically mentioned "less than 50ms" - but I have to think once you get into that sub 20ms haas-effect zone that these "important cues" (early sidewall reflections) are doing nothing more than smearing our timing perception of the speakers' (presumably) beautiful direct sound?

You also have to consider the speakers' dispersion (off-axis response) and sidewall reflection characteristics IMO - it's not likely that a blanket statement regarding acoustics will fit all scenarios.

I know my smallish monitoring environment showed marked improvements in imaging and soundstage after treating first sidewall (lateral) reflections (above what the fairly dead ceiling treatments had already improved on)...

Must be nice to have such large rooms to pontificate about "good sounding first reflections"! I'm more than a little jelly!!!! Cool
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supafuzz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

Super 70 is 15x30 x12 [with 2 ft above the drop ceiling] exact dimensions a the PIT at Motown..same construction as well.
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supafuzz
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:48 pm    Post subject: first reflection absorbers Reply with quote

I put the first reflection absorbers back and started to do more treatments on the back walls but up high.
More to come
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JWL
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: first reflection absorbers Reply with quote

supafuzz wrote:
I put the first reflection absorbers back and started to do more treatments on the back walls but up high.
More to come


Good man. I never understood the argument in the OP. I have to assume that people who argue against a RFZ have never listened in one. Put panels up, listen to depth & detail of the stereo image, take them down and hear things get fuzzy.

Easy to verify with measurements, too....

http://realtraps.com/rfz.htm
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roscoenyc
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Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: first reflection absorbers Reply with quote

supafuzz wrote:
I put the first reflection absorbers back and started to do more treatments on the back walls but up high.
More to come


Do you have a cloud above your listening position?
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supafuzz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: cloud Reply with quote

Some days it seems like that.. ha ha
Yes I've had a cloud up there for a few years.
I'm thinking about adding a couple of more. We just angled it back a little that made it better. Now I want one directly above and another behind that like at my friend's mastering studio
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trodden
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: first reflection /sidewalls Reply with quote

Interesting.

I'm building out a new space, which is going to be about 1/3 of the size of my last room.. so.. pretty small, 11X15. It's going to have an iso booth and I'm having a hard time placing the sliding glass door far enough so its not in the early reflections... my previous place had a cloud above, super chunks in the corners, 4" absorbers on the wall behind the speakers, as well as 2" absorbers at the "Mirror places" on the side.
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