Recording accordion next to a blasting clarinet

[IlyaIlitch]

Hello,

There is a lot of thread talking about accordion recording techniques, but solo.
There is not often big compromises to do with a soloist.
I recorded solo accordion with good result, using a pair of coles, with some LDC too.
Distant, in a good acoustic you get a very nice sound texture.

I will record a trio, percussions, clarinet, accordion.
I have two separate rooms,
The percussion will be in one room, clarinet and accordion in the other.
(I think this is the best to do)

This is something like heavy noisy free jazz. Huge dynamic in playing.

I have some doubt about how micing the accordion next to the clarinet.

the clarinet will be often blasting super high level.

There is no gobos in this studio;
I can of course create some separations with mic stands and blanket, I probably will, but these won't make a huge difference.

The accordion in the mix that I imagine for this recording and according with the music they composed will be the larger instrument in the speaker, the only one close miked in stereo.
So I am looking for solo-ish sound in a non soloist environnement.... Problem !

The accordionist has a beta 98 that I can clip on the bass side, that could help, but in addition with a mic on a stand I would get some nasty phase problem as this hand is moving a lot....
Any experience with that ?

any experience with dynamic mic on accordion ?


Thank you for your time...
any advice would be welcomed !!

[Brett Siler]

I wouldn't be to scared. Just get a good sounding cardiod mic and put it pretty close to your player and space them out far enough and I think you'll be fine. There will be bleed but as long as the source is louder than the bleed you'll be cool. Add some room mics for depth and "realism" and I think you'll be kosher.

Scenarios for set up:
Have them stand parallel with each other say 6 ft apart or so (just a guess) with close mics on the instruments and (optional) room mics a few feet back.

or

Have them stand facing each other again say 6ft apart, with them backs of the carded mics facing each other. In theory the backs of the mics should reject quite a bit of bleed. In practice you may have to try both and see which one you like better.

Thats what I would do. Goodluck! Let us know how it goes!

[drumsound]

I would consider placement of the instruments and the space AND mic patterns seriously. I'd probably use a single figure 8 on the accordion and have the clarinet in the null of that mic. I'd use a cardioid on the clarinet.

Accordions are freaking LOUD. Maybe you'd be better off with it in the iso and the percussion and clarinet in the other room.

[IlyaIlitch]

I wouldn't be to scared. Just get a good sounding cardiod mic and put it pretty close to your player and space them out far enough and I think you'll be fine. There will be bleed but as long as the source is louder than the bleed you'll be cool. Add some room mics for depth and "realism" and I think you'll be kosher.

Scenarios for set up:
Have them stand parallel with each other say 6 ft apart or so (just a guess) with close mics on the instruments and (optional) room mics a few feet back.

or

Have them stand facing each other again say 6ft apart, with them backs of the carded mics facing each other. In theory the backs of the mics should reject quite a bit of bleed. In practice you may have to try both and see which one you like better.

Thats what I would do. Goodluck! Let us know how it goes!

I would consider placement of the instruments and the space AND mic patterns seriously. I'd probably use a single figure 8 on the accordion and have the clarinet in the null of that mic. I'd use a cardioid on the clarinet.

Accordions are freaking LOUD. Maybe you'd be better off with it in the iso and the percussion and clarinet in the other room.

Hello,
Thank you both of you for your answer.
They play loud, the 3 of them, heavy stuff, semi improvised.
They are not seeking naturalistic acoustic aesthetic but a more frontal sound.

So I guess the idea of puting the accordion in the booth rather than the percusion is a good option...
I have been thinking about that because thinking of the mix accordingly to the way there music is arranged and composed the accordion is really central and it would make sense to record it with beautiful depth and good large stereo, the clarinet fit well centered and the percussions around the clarinet...

I have to try things but the question might finally be what leeking on what instrument would be the most problematic assuming they all play with huge dynamic...

The accordion is for me the most problematic, but I have been thinking that the percussion would create the most bleeding on a instrument next to it.
And this might be totally wrong....
Clarinet leeking into percussions and vice versa
or
clarinet leeking into accordion and vice versa...

(sorry for length of thinking writing at the same time and bad english speaking... uh...)

[Magnetic Services]

What's the percussion? A full kit?

I'm picturing Farmer's Market with clarinet instead of sax. (and no bass)

On one extreme, you could have the percussion shut away in the iso room, and the accordion and clarinet on opposite sides of the other room with close mics and everybody using headphones. Or what might evoke a better performance is to have them all in the same room, separated but still close enough for improv to flow naturally, with smart choice of mic patterns and placement. You'll definitely have bleed but if you do it right it will "glue" everything together. You will likely need to figure out some kind of makeshift baffles or gobos to put in front of the melody instruments.

As for the accordion, if you really need stereo I suggest using the clip on mic on the bass side (since that side will be moving, the mic must move with it) and try a hypercardiod dynamic close up on the other side. Phase shouldn't be much of a problem if the mics are closer to the reeds than to each other when the accordion is in the closed position.

I have recorded myself playing accordion but only solo. A dynamic may not seem like the obvious choice but I've run into problems with too much noise from the air and buttons with condensers. Then again, I don't play the instrument very loudly....

hope that helps!

[Snarl 12/8]

It strikes me that, with the priorities you've laid out, maybe you want to put the accordion alone in the iso room and the clarinet and percussion together in the bigger room. What am I missing here?

[joninc]

I'd probably use a single figure 8 on the accordion and have the clarinet in the null of that mic.

I find the null of a coles to be way MORE NULLED than a cardoid condenser. Use to your advantage!

[drumsound]

I'd probably use a single figure 8 on the accordion and have the clarinet in the null of that mic.

I find the null of a coles to be way MORE NULLED than a cardoid condenser. Use to your advantage!

Figure 8 nulls tend to be deeper (and thus quite useful).

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I know this is total sacrilege but you could also try taping mics to the grills on the L & R side of the accordion. I've seen it done live with 609s. Use those for isolation and combine them with any of the mic suggested above for tone.

[Brett Siler]

Figure 8 could reject more bleed if positioned just right, or the back of it could pick up quite a bit of other instruments. Which ever type of mic used, placement of players and mic is crucial for all live sessions. You most likely will have to do some experimenting. Hopefully you have some time for that. If not, go with your gut.

Never heard back if the percussion was a drum kit or not. If it's a full kit, I'd personally isolate that, because hi hat will bleed into everything and could potentially be problematic.

For all live in one room, I also like to set up players and mics like how I image it will be panned in the mix later. So with a 4 piece rock band (drums,bass 2 guitars) for example, I'll set up stage left guitar on the same side as the the hi hat on the drum kit (left side duh), so if there is bleed into the guitar amp mic, I'll pan it to the same side as I would the hi hat overhead. That way the stereo imagery is still intact.

[Magnetic Services]

I'll set up stage left guitar on the same side as the the hi hat on the drum kit (left side duh), so if there is bleed into the guitar amp mic, I'll pan it to the same side as I would the hi hat overhead. That way the stereo imagery is still intact.

That's interesting, because sometimes I intentionally do the opposite: placing a guitar amp on the non-hi-hat side of a kit so that the busy midrange guitar bleed on one side balances the busy midrange hi-hat stuff on the other side. I usually find that the guitar is louder in the overhead mics than the hi-hat is in the guitar mic.

I suppose it comes from thinking about bleed FROM guitar INTO drum mics as opposed to bleed FROM drums INTO guitar mic.

It also has a lot to do with the parts being played. If the guitar is playing very rhythmically it makes sense to have it balance the hi-hat in the stereo field. If the hi-hat is more washy and the guitar is more ambient that's a different story.

Sorry to take this thread off-topic but I'm sure the OP's session happened a long time ago (would love to know how it went)

[Brett Siler]

Hey, there is always more than one way to skin a cat right? Thats what makes doing this so fun!

I too am curious to see how this session went. OP up date us!

[cgarges]

I'd start by putting them as close together as possible. You'll get fewer problems with the leakage, in terms of if sounding funny, and less uncontrollable "ambience" than you might if the players were farther apart.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC