help with sm58, placement, getting more bottom end

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banana brains
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help with sm58, placement, getting more bottom end

Post by banana brains » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:41 pm

Hello there. I use an sm58 to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the same time.

I record to a tascam portastudio.

I am not interested in using a different mic or different recording medium.

My problem is in order to balance the volume between the guitar and vocals I end up having to put the mic overhead, looking down. In so doing, the balance is great, but the sound gets real thin.

any recommendations? (I toyed with the idea of getting a better preamp--I currently use a mackie with onyx pres).

Would it be wise to boost the lows while tracking? Maybe some compression? I wasn't sure if any of this would help because the mic might not be in a position where it can actually "hear" any lows.

Much appreciated.

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joninc
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Post by joninc » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:39 pm

totally try boosting low end! compression isn't gonna add fullness.

also bringing it as close as you can will increase proximity effect and capture more lows.
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Post by vvv » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:07 pm

Consider a second mic, even a 58, one more for the guitar, the other more for the vocal.
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Post by floid » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:31 pm

Overhead as in, over your head? Or relative to the guitar?
Have you tried adjusting the performance dynamics, i.e. sing louder/play softer?
Are you wearing headphones to monitor?
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Post by JWL » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:19 pm

You can also try arranging yourself in a part of the room that has more bass, such as corners. For instance, try facing into a corner, and putting the mic up in the trihedral corner (where the 2 walls meet the ceiling). This will likely yield an extreme sound, almost special effect sound, but will give you an idea of the possibilities.

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Post by honkyjonk » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:50 am

The 58 has a good amount of proximity effect but if it's not close enough you can't utilize it. Plus, 4 tracks don't have a lot of low end anyway. So yeah, boost that shit on the way in (or on the way out)
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Post by Magnetic Services » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:58 am

Recording at a different speed may help a bit.

If you're open to buying a new preamp, then why not a new mic instead? Start closer to the source. If your Mackie has phantom power, go for an omnidirectional condenser and play around with placement and EQ.

If the reason you only want to use the 58 is for "lo-fi-ness", just get another one for the guitar. It would technically still be "recorded on 4 track with one mic!!!" So you won't lose any street cred.

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Post by Drone » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:45 pm

I think it's all in positioning, overhead isn't going to put either source in the best position, can you put it front on, and pull it back, or forward until you get a good balance? It takes the performer knowing not to try and sing into the mic, so they don't hunch over, or lean in.

Maybe start with the mic about chin height, or a little lower and maybe a foot and a half back, and adjust to suit?

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Post by honkyjonk » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:39 pm

Another thing is (speaking from experience here,) you might have wound up with the mic up high like that because your monitoring situation is telling you that's the best balance because, for example you might be hearing that it's too boomy with the mic placed otherwise. There might be a better balance with it placed somewhere else, but your room might not be letting your monitors tell you that.

Check the recordings on some other systems and get an idea of what your room is doing.
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Post by SpencerMartin » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:32 am

I was recently messing around with the same general technique - guitar and vocal into a single mic and really liked what I was hearing. (And keep in mind, I'm generally not a one mic on multiple sources kinda guy at all.) The mic I used was a figure 8 condenser, so your results will definitely vary with a 58. Beyond the factor of mic choice, I was singing pretty quietly and fingerpicking a nylon string classical guitar. If you're doing something totally different, i.e. strumming a steel string and singing loudly, this may not work at all. Perhaps try giving it a shot though anyways and see if it works for you!

- Mic placed at eye level in front of you, a full arm's reach distance away, 30 degree tilt downwards.

Adjusting the height and/or distance of the mic by mere centimeters will change the balance pretty drastically, even though it's definitely not a close mic at that range. You might also experiment with angling yourself slightly differently - either directly into the mic, or somewhat past it off to the side, etc.

One last disclaimer - a figure 8 pattern like I used will naturally give fuller lows at a distance, so you may find that you need to move it in closer in order to "EQ" your signal to achieve the amount of low end fullness you want. My guess is that as you move the mic in closer you'll also need to drop the height slightly lower from eye level to maintain the same triangular distance between the mic and two sources. Good luck!

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Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:26 am

A different preamp is not going to compensate for the lack of proximity, and you can't really boost low end that isn't there to begin with. It's a tough one.
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Post by banana brains » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:32 pm

floid wrote:Overhead as in, over your head? Or relative to the guitar?
Have you tried adjusting the performance dynamics, i.e. sing louder/play softer?
Are you wearing headphones to monitor?
Yes, over my head, mic angled down. I can't adjust my dynamics much without changing the feel of the song. I kinda pound the sh-t out of my acoustic. Unfortunately, my voice isn't the loudest of voices either, but I give it what I got.

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Post by banana brains » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:37 pm

Magnetic Services wrote:If the reason you only want to use the 58 is for "lo-fi-ness", just get another one for the guitar. It would technically still be "recorded on 4 track with one mic!!!" So you won't lose any street cred.
Not necessarily lo-fi for the sake of lo-fi, but an economic challenge. I'm lovingly working on this five song project and the rule was to do it with a single 58 on a four track. I only make these for a few friends who like music, none of them know anything about recording. I'm not going to gain or lose any street cred with them. Well, maybe lose some if the songs suck.

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Post by banana brains » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:40 pm

Drone wrote:Maybe start with the mic about chin height, or a little lower and maybe a foot and a half back, and adjust to suit?
I did this tonight, which I have done before and couldn't get the balance between the sources correct (guitar was overpowering the vocal). Tonight for whatever reason it seemed to work. Boosted the lows a bit too.

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Post by banana brains » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:42 pm

Recycled_Brains wrote:A different preamp is not going to compensate for the lack of proximity, and you can't really boost low end that isn't there to begin with. It's a tough one.
I think this is really what i was getting at. If the mic isn't picking up any lows due to positioning, I didn't know if boosting the lows would be advisable. Maybe it would just pick up whatever ambient lows were floating around the room.

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