RegisterRegister
Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages
Log inLog in
FAQ  -  SEARCH  -  MEMBERS  -  FAVORITES  -  PROFILE
Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC?????
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   printer-friendly view    Tape Op Message Board Forum Index -> Recording Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Drone
buyin' gear


Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Posts: 578
Location: Uranus

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Not knowing how your tracking, I'd use the 8th channel to record whatever scratch instrument the drummer is playing to, unless it's an already recorded scratch track Rolling Eyes
_________________
The previous statement is from a guy who records his own, and other projects for fun. No money is made.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
joninc
carpal tunnel


Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 1685
Location: canada

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Quote:

More seriously, a good drummer controls his dynamics and mixes himself, and shouldn't really need a whole lot of help from me at mix time.


i think i know what you are trying to say but it's way overstated and there's a lot of assumptions being made.

the performance certainly is a HUGE part of the entire scenario but a poor balance of the tracks will still ruin a great performance.

what if you are trying to push things sonically to different creative places that a "natural" recording won't get you?

Quote:
More mics on a shitty drummer is just more shit.


who said the drummer was shitty? does that mean more mics on an awesome drummer is more awesome?

minimal micing really only works on a great drummer - on a crappy drummer you really often need control of the different elements to help bring a better balance than they were able to perform.
_________________
the new rules : there are no rules
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
floid
re-cappin' neve


Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 736
Location: in exile

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Speaking as a crappy drummer...
Minimalist setups have helped my playing and recording quite a bit over the years. Yes, discrete mics help, but once I started thinking in terms of kit rather than drums, something clicked.
Bleeding out of time from my headphones mostly, but still.
_________________
Village Idiot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JWL
deaf.


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 1866
Location: Maine

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

floid wrote:
once I started thinking in terms of kit rather than drums, something clicked.


Bingo. I am not even a shitty drummer, but this was definitely true for me as an engineer.
_________________
Acoustics & Audiogeekery
Quality Audiogeekery in Northern New England
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
drumsound
TOMB Moderator
TOMB Moderator


Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 6357
Location: Bloomington IL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

ashcat_lt wrote:
JWL wrote:
I would put the 8th mic back in the case with the 5th, 6th, and 7th mics. Wink Twisted Evil

Yep. If you need that much control, you might as well go to triggers, cause it ain't likely to sound natural anyway.



Sorry man, but I gotta call bullshit on this. There are many production styles where mics on each drum pretty necessary. I love a good minimal micing scenario, if it works with he production, but that isn't always the case. Its really a horses for coursees situation.

If I know there is going to be a bunch of other parts add, and that many of them will have distortion, there's no way I'm losing tom work in the mix because I went with a "hipper than thou" approach and INSISTED on using just 3 mics or something like that. Its my JOB to serve the production, the song, the artist and (if its not me) the producer.
_________________
Tony
Oxide Lounge Recording
Follow me on TWITTER!
SARA QUAH PLEDGE PAGE
WWRTBD?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JWL
deaf.


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 1866
Location: Maine

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Of course, do what you need to do to serve the song. Many styles need that many mics and sometimes many more. I remember reading that they used like 30 mics to record Neil Peart's drums on a Rush album. But then he's Neil Freakin Peart.

But also, many of my favorite drum recordings use only a few mics.... I tend to prefer a more natural drum sound for most things.
_________________
Acoustics & Audiogeekery
Quality Audiogeekery in Northern New England
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
digitaldrummer
deaf.


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1971
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

speaking for my own studio, I may have 8-12 mics on the kit and in various spots of the room that I know sound interesting. I often record with all of them but NEVER use all of them. it comes down to the song and what sounds good in context. Nobody is willing to budget for extra days or even hours to search for that perfect sound, so I capture a few extra possibilities and whatever is not needed for the mix is muted or thrown away.

Mike
_________________
www.studiodrumtracks.com -- Drum tracks starting at $50!
www.doubledogrecording.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Drone
buyin' gear


Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Posts: 578
Location: Uranus

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Be glad you have a spare mic, my drummer currently has 5-6 rack toms, and two floor toms Mr. Green
_________________
The previous statement is from a guy who records his own, and other projects for fun. No money is made.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
A.David.MacKinnon
mixes from purgatory


Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 2912
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Drone wrote:
Be glad you have a spare mic, my drummer currently has 5-6 rack toms, and two floor toms :mrgreen:


That's 6-8 too many.
_________________
Dave

http://adavidmackinnon.blogspot.com
http://adavidmackinnon.bandcamp.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Drone
buyin' gear


Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Posts: 578
Location: Uranus

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

The more drums he brings, the less mics he gets. He really should be down to one, but I'm generous and keeping it at three. Mr. Green
_________________
The previous statement is from a guy who records his own, and other projects for fun. No money is made.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nick Sevilla
speech impediment


Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 4444
Location: Los Angeles California USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

oceanblood wrote:
Curious what kind of different opinions are out there. Here's the scenario:
You've got only 8 inputs on your interface.
You mic Snare, tom, tom, floor, kick, & 2 overheads. That's 7.
Where do you put the 8th mic?
Bottom of the snare? Sub for the kick? Mono room mic?
How would you change the set up for rock, metal, pop, jazz?
Thanks!


Here's a setup I've used for a long time, when I need some control over the balance of the drumkit. Mostly when recording a drummer I've never worked with before:

Firstly, I always plug in and turn on one mic at a time, and leave the previous mic(s) ON as I am placing the next microphone. this technique will always tell you when the new mic is introducing shitty phase issues or horrific other problems such as comb filtering or other nastiness.

1. Kick. Usually (90% of the time) INSIDE the kick, pointing between the batter and AWAY from the snare, i.e. pointed towards the left side rear skin. This I listen to / test record, and adjust the mic until I get these two things: The BEST kick sound VS the LEAST snare bleed. Once that mic is in that position, I lock it in pretty tightly. What mic, I use a Shure Beta52. you can use whatever you want as long as it is able to take 150dB of smackage.

2. Snare. This apart from the hihat will be the LOUDEST drum of the whole setup. Either a Shure SM57 or an AKG 414 or a Shure SM81, or an ATm450, or whatever really. YOu can literally place any mic you have here, as long as it can take the punishment of 150dB smacks of air into it o.k. As to placement, I place it facing the skin at an angle, and then hit THE OTHER DRUMS. Until the bleed from the other drums is a BALANCED level between the SNARE and all the others. In simpler terms, I BALANCE the entire kit in that one snare mic, and not worry so much about the SNARE level itself. Because the snare, when hit, will absolutely drown out everyone else in that mic. Now, WHY would I balance the OTHER drums on the snare mic? Well, because once they are balanced, they will no longer be a problem if I gate or compress the SNARE. They will all pretty much go up or down in level equally, so I can set a sound on the snare, and not worry about the other bastards causing fake gate triggering or other such nonsense.

3. HiHat. This I put in next. Typically I use a Shure SM81, or an AKG 451EB. Again, I try to point it towards the hihats while playing the other parts of the kit, until I find the spot where the bleed is minimal. And important: I cannot really worry about what the SNARE will do to this mic. But, what I CAN do, is make sure that the snare mic and the hihat mic work well together. So that they can be on at the same time and not mess up the snare sound. Mic placement hell here. I usualy use the highest filter the mic has got on this mic. On an AKG451, it is 150Hz. Because I don't want the kick in my hihat track. You know...

4. Toms. Usually there will be 3. Which takes us to 6 mics total. I ALWAYS use the SAME sort of mic for the toms, even the floor tom. I like using either ATm450s, AKG414s, or crazy dynamic mics like EV 664s. I HATE Sennheiser 421 on toms. I was forced to use those for years, and it was a nightmare to EQ any useable sound out of those bastards. So I don't use them there. Again, I start with one of the tom mics, and listen for placeement to make the bleed of the other drums as low as possible. On the hi tom closest to the snare, I always always use hypercardioid mic pattern. The other two toms may or may not need hypercardioid. It all depends on how often they will get smacked.

5. Overheads. These I tend to do last, mainly because it is easier for me at least. These I place by trying to get the Kick and Snare to be perfectly place in the Stereo field that these two mics are going to create. The PHASE with the other mics I solve by changing the HEIGHT of these two mics, ONCE the kick and snare are centered in the Stereo image. I also use the microphone's hipass filters, typically 70Hz or whatever the lowest setting is.

Lastly, and VERY important, I use the PADS on EVERY mic EVERY TIME. I don't even attempt to not do this. Because I hate the crunchy sound of a mic amplifier taking a dumpy dump. There is literally nothing that can fix that either. So always do this. And screw those mic purist morons who insist that mic pads somehow "chang the sound" o the microphone. I like to use my microphones for a long time. Like years. Not putting the pad in, is like not using a condom on your willy. Sure, it's is fun and living on the edge, but it will get nasty really quick, and you'll end up needing to see the doctor for sure, and pretty much immediately after going out to the party.

After the fact, EQ / compression is entirely dependent on the type of music to be recorded. And best done AFTER you already have a great basic drum sound coming from the microphones. If you try to fix a shitty mic placement with EQ / compression, you are not doing it right, you should hang your head in shame, and go do some other career. Friends don't let friends "fix it in the mix" or whatever the heck.

And since you'll probably be recording digitally, this HAS to be said about levels: YELLOW is your new RED. Meaning that those transient spikes should only hit the YELLOW every now and then when the barbarian hits the skins hard. Then and only then you'll get all the nice transients in their proper shape, which will make the drums sound correct. Get your shit correct.

In order to avoid crazy bandmates and / or client bitching about why micing the drumkit take so long, try to do it the day BEFORE the divas show up. Then you can really take the time and respect that recording a drumkit properly requires. Remember, even if you see bob Clearmountain placing three microphones and getting a decent mic sound, does NOT mean YOU are Bob. Or that your drummer is as good as whomever Bob is using (trust me they won't be). No. Instead do the work, dammit. DON'T SKIMP. Don't be lazy. Don't be stupid. Don't save time. Don't think it's o.k., when you KNOW it sounds like shit. MAKE it sound great young grasshopper. Then you too can join the halls of great recording engineers. Maybe. And only if you bribe us with beer and chocolates as well.

Cheers
_________________
The Song. Nothing else really matters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
vvv
zen recordist


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 7929
Location: Chi

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Cool Cool Cool , Nick!

FWIW, as I posted above, I did do that recording:
1. Room: MXL R40 ribbon (mod), 40' out, facing sideways;
2. Kick: Senn E602: in the kick w/ both skins (kinda boomy, yo); drummer placed to taste;
3. Snare:Senn E609, 2" off, hat in the null, facing across;
4. Floor toms: he has two, so I put a RE320 facing across, slightly down and between the middle of 'em;
5. OHL: AT4040 (pads and hi -pass engaged), spaced pair 10' apart, toed in, 3' up, 4' out and oriented on axis from the snare through the kick;
6. OHR: s/a/a
7. Rack Toms: AKG P2 facing across, slightly down and between the middle of 'em;
8. Front of kit: M-Audio Sputnik (tube), 6' out, in line with top of kick

Not my fave song, but used in this past weekend's choon, here.

I later in the session changed the OH's to CAD M179s in card, and the snare to a AKG D310, just because.

I recorded him for 5 & 1/2 hours, got 18 songs done, and then we jammed with me on DI bass (eliminated the room mic) for a few minutes; a faders-up ruff is here.

I have pix if anyone wants to see ...
_________________
bandcamp; vlayman;
THD; blog.
I mix with olive juice.


Last edited by vvv on Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:05 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Drone
buyin' gear


Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Posts: 578
Location: Uranus

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Did you take a picture? Cymbals are always my bugbear.
_________________
The previous statement is from a guy who records his own, and other projects for fun. No money is made.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vvv
zen recordist


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 7929
Location: Chi

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Yeah, I'll post after dinner ...
_________________
bandcamp; vlayman;
THD; blog.
I mix with olive juice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
A.David.MacKinnon
mixes from purgatory


Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 2912
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Miking DRUMS! Where to put the EIGHTH MIC????? Reply with quote

Nick Sevilla wrote:

4. Toms. I like using either ATm450s, AKG414s, or crazy dynamic mics like EV 664s.


I just did a session with 664's on the toms. They sounded great. I use them all over my own kit but rarely on toms and almost never on sessions for real clients. I'll have to change that.

vvv wrote:

1. Room: MXL R40 ribbon (mod), 40' out, facing sideways


I don't know that mic but the sideways ribbon room mic is a trick I break out all the time. So good
_________________
Dave

http://adavidmackinnon.blogspot.com
http://adavidmackinnon.bandcamp.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   printer-friendly view    Tape Op Message Board Forum Index -> Recording Techniques All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum