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Sennheiser MD421
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drumsound
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

I use an e602 II most of the time. I do some EQ as needed, but the thing delivers really nice sounds. The 421 plus LDC out thing is a pretty classic sound, but I don't do it that often.
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I'm Painting Again
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

421 is great if you don't need the lowest sounds - love the e602 will give you more in the lows but not as solid in the mids perhaps - couple either of those with a FET47 type mic farther out and you get the potential to capture all the goods any kick can deliver
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A.David.MacKinnon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

The 602 is a funny one for me. I don't have tons of experience with it but there's one at a studio I've been working out of recently and I've given it a go a few times when I have drum sessions. It seems to me that the closer it is to the drum (like the traditional, partly in the hole placement) the more fake and ridiculous it sounds. The lows are insanely exaggerated and the mids seem non existent. As soon as I back it up a foot or more it sounds great and sits beautifully in the mix. I know this can happen to a degree with any mic but I've never heard it to this extreme.
I'm not complaining, once it's backed up a bit it sounds fantastic but it's a little weird. Any one else experienced this?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

i'd take a 421 over a 602 any day of the week and twice on sunday. not sure why everyone loves the mid scooped kick drums. they sound like shit to me. i'd rather boost the lows in EQ on the way in or in the mix than use a d112 or e602
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I'm Painting Again
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
The 602 is a funny one for me. I don't have tons of experience with it but there's one at a studio I've been working out of recently and I've given it a go a few times when I have drum sessions. It seems to me that the closer it is to the drum (like the traditional, partly in the hole placement) the more fake and ridiculous it sounds. The lows are insanely exaggerated and the mids seem non existent. As soon as I back it up a foot or more it sounds great and sits beautifully in the mix. I know this can happen to a degree with any mic but I've never heard it to this extreme.
I'm not complaining, once it's backed up a bit it sounds fantastic but it's a little weird. Any one else experienced this?


that's generally my experience as well - I keep it a foot back off a non-ported resonant head - i've never had much luck (in my space/ w my drum) with the popular kick mic in or near the little port situation - it comes down to how / why you record yr drums in a certain way - I need a booming kick with added attack and specific muffling for my kit's kick in my room for my methods to sound correct in the final drum mix

that said I've heard the close kick mic thing work wonderfully in other recording situations or with other drums

the game is listen and adjust what you have to work with to get the appropriate sound

what works here will not automatically work there

so choose yr mic based on what your sound needs and not particularly what mic is better in a vacuum
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A.David.MacKinnon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

I'm Painting Again wrote:
A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
The 602 is a funny one for me. I don't have tons of experience with it but there's one at a studio I've been working out of recently and I've given it a go a few times when I have drum sessions. It seems to me that the closer it is to the drum (like the traditional, partly in the hole placement) the more fake and ridiculous it sounds. The lows are insanely exaggerated and the mids seem non existent. As soon as I back it up a foot or more it sounds great and sits beautifully in the mix. I know this can happen to a degree with any mic but I've never heard it to this extreme.
I'm not complaining, once it's backed up a bit it sounds fantastic but it's a little weird. Any one else experienced this?


that's generally my experience as well - I keep it a foot back off a non-ported resonant head - i've never had much luck (in my space/ w my drum) with the popular kick mic in or near the little port situation - it comes down to how / why you record yr drums in a certain way - I need a booming kick with added attack and specific muffling for my kit's kick in my room for my methods to sound correct in the final drum mix

that said I've heard the close kick mic thing work wonderfully in other recording situations or with other drums

the game is listen and adjust what you have to work with to get the appropriate sound

what works here will not automatically work there

so choose yr mic based on what your sound needs and not particularly what mic is better in a vacuum


yeah. I never expect one size to fit all. My main point was that I've never really experienced such a drastic tonal change from a mic based on positioning. I always expect some changes from any mic based on proximity and placement but usually the mic retains it's fundamental character. With the 602 it's night and day. Moving it 6" makes it sound like a whole other mic.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

yes for sure !

my posting style is for general reference to all users of the forum and I'm often reminded that it can read as overstating the obvious or missing the point of an individual

My feeling about this mic is that it is indeed prone to change sound with proximity but not amazingly unique in that respect. A node in the room or timbre of the instrument could also easily be contributing factors here.

i agree it sounds different at different distances for sure

for reference I'm using the e602 version 1
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A.David.MacKinnon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

I'm Painting Again wrote:
yes for sure !
A node in the room or timbre of the instrument could also easily be contributing factors here.


That's a good point. I don't know the room super well. It's really well treated but on the small side so there could well be an issue there.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:31 am    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

not to mention in the hole you're getting the sound of the backside of the batter head and the energy inside the drum more than mostly the front head when you move it out

just playing with it a few minutes ago and even with no port hole close in gets a lot of that reverse batter head sound
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drumsound
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

I prefer the 603 just inside the hole, with some EQ and compression. I can't remember if I've used it with a non ported head.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

of course participating in this thread got me wanting to compare the ported head in my pre-setup for today's drum session. Yep..still can't stand the sound of that mic in the port hole.. it's basketball city and i guess it's because of the way the front head is set up (penny taped to beater impact point).. I'm actually using the ported head on the front this time as it's a brand new technique i've cobbled together for today. The e602 is about a foot off the front head pointed at the center..amped by a VT-2 ..the sound of the instrument is pretty comparable to non ported clear head with a blanket muffling it..just don't need the blanket

this with a wurst mic above the kick shell pointed at the snare (e 609 silver) - to altec 1566a - redeye - space echo - orban 418a then sm57 512c snare top / beyer m160 mono OH amped w VT-2 - mk012 (hyper caps& pad) on the bottom toms (512c's) and U195 on the back wall (also 512c) into a distressor at the ratio under nuke (12:1?) is giving me a very cool sound..they want a ringo later lennon type thing .. the little slap tape echo on the wurst being crushed by the orban and the hair from the altec is just magnifiqué for reconstructing that vibe
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Randyman...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

I'm Painting Again wrote:
Yep..still can't stand the sound of that mic in the port hole.. it's basketball city and i guess it's because of the way the front head is set up (penny taped to beater impact point)..


I've recently found the "Basketball" sound is more attributable to the bare wood shell inside the drum (think about the frequencies that it is reinforcing being a cylinder and highly reflective).

Had a very nice Pork Pie kit in here a few months ago. Was tuned well with light damping built into the batter head, but had the basketball thing happening in a really bad way (even just the acoustic sound in the room had lots of it happening). I simply put a small couch arm cushion inside the shell (not even touching the heads) and BAM - basketball sound GONE! Impact and attack fully retained and even more present with that basketball sound gone.

Almost like lightly treating the reflections in a wood-paneled cylindrical room - lol. The quarter/penny on the beater thing will only accentuate that basketball quality - and the small cushion trick will retain the player's desired beater "chick" and kill a lot of the pingy basketball sound.

That is all Cool
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

BTW, my fave example of that basketball kick sound is the Bush album, Sea of Memories ...



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I'm Painting Again
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

Randyman... wrote:
I'm Painting Again wrote:
Yep..still can't stand the sound of that mic in the port hole.. it's basketball city and i guess it's because of the way the front head is set up (penny taped to beater impact point)..


I've recently found the "Basketball" sound is more attributable to the bare wood shell inside the drum (think about the frequencies that it is reinforcing being a cylinder and highly reflective).

Had a very nice Pork Pie kit in here a few months ago. Was tuned well with light damping built into the batter head, but had the basketball thing happening in a really bad way (even just the acoustic sound in the room had lots of it happening). I simply put a small couch arm cushion inside the shell (not even touching the heads) and BAM - basketball sound GONE! Impact and attack fully retained and even more present with that basketball sound gone.

Almost like lightly treating the reflections in a wood-paneled cylindrical room - lol. The quarter/penny on the beater thing will only accentuate that basketball quality - and the small cushion trick will retain the player's desired beater "chick" and kill a lot of the pingy basketball sound.

That is all Cool


Awesome ! that makes sense..will try it out in the near future.. Thanks for the tip !
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I'm Painting Again
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Sennheiser MD421 Reply with quote

tried it with a thick blanket..works great ! who woulda thought? i guess that's why Ringo put that eight armed sweater in his bass drum Surprised bless you de-basketballing hero
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