Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
-
- gettin' sounds
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:26 pm
Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
We have our first paying clients coming in tonight to do drum tracks. I'm really excited but also a bit nervous.
I've listented to the band's demos a few times and the one thing I immediately notice is that the drummer plays a lot of big, washy hats.
This concerns me because in past experiences, I've really had trouble getting a good, loud snare sound withoud having the hats WAY too high in the mix.
We have a pretty small room (10x10x8 approx.) and thus have been getting the best results close micing all the drums. So in this case a backed-away three or four mic setup probably won't be what we use.
Our best snare sounds have been with an AKG d130 (onmi dynamic) a few inches away from the snare. I've tried this with hat-bashers though and it always lets too much cymbal in.
So this time I think we're going to try a 57. Does anyone have any advice on what kind of angle/distance works well with washy hats?
FYI, the rest of the kit will probably be mic'd like this: 57's on the toms, beta52 in the bass drum, b1 in front of the bass drum, 2 sdc's as overheads. We have the omni mic as a leftover, and if nobody has any good ideas as to where else we can use it, we might put it up in the adjacent bathroom (with the door open) to get a semblance of ambience.
Thanks in advance
I've listented to the band's demos a few times and the one thing I immediately notice is that the drummer plays a lot of big, washy hats.
This concerns me because in past experiences, I've really had trouble getting a good, loud snare sound withoud having the hats WAY too high in the mix.
We have a pretty small room (10x10x8 approx.) and thus have been getting the best results close micing all the drums. So in this case a backed-away three or four mic setup probably won't be what we use.
Our best snare sounds have been with an AKG d130 (onmi dynamic) a few inches away from the snare. I've tried this with hat-bashers though and it always lets too much cymbal in.
So this time I think we're going to try a 57. Does anyone have any advice on what kind of angle/distance works well with washy hats?
FYI, the rest of the kit will probably be mic'd like this: 57's on the toms, beta52 in the bass drum, b1 in front of the bass drum, 2 sdc's as overheads. We have the omni mic as a leftover, and if nobody has any good ideas as to where else we can use it, we might put it up in the adjacent bathroom (with the door open) to get a semblance of ambience.
Thanks in advance
-
- zen recordist
- Posts: 10890
- Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:26 am
- Location: Charlotte, NC
- Contact:
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
Cardioid microphones reject sounds at the back of the mic. Start by thinking in those terms.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
- NewYorkDave
- re-cappin' neve
- Posts: 679
- Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 9:47 am
- Location: New York, Hudson Valley
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
I feel for you. The drummer in my first band played like that, and his goddamned hi-hat was a big reason why we could never make a listenable recording. I once mic'ed his snare from the bottom, which cut out a lot of the 'hat, but it sounded like ass.
The first thing I would try is to get the drummer to close his hats... seriously. No "workaround" is ever going to be as satisfactory.
The first thing I would try is to get the drummer to close his hats... seriously. No "workaround" is ever going to be as satisfactory.
- trashy
- dead but not forgotten
- Posts: 2128
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 10:30 am
- Location: Red Bluff, CA
- Contact:
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
Exactly, face the snare mic away from the hi-hat as much as possible.cgarges wrote:Cardioid microphones reject sounds at the back of the mic. Start by thinking in those terms.
Can you get a hold of some smaller thinner hi-hats? Do. If not, ask the drummer to play with smaller sticks.
Try mic-ing the bottom of the snare, too - in such a way that the bottom snare mic's "view" of the hi-hat is blocked by the snare itself.
Watch your overheads. Make sure the snare is in phase (or as close as possible) with all your mics, but especially these ones.
Is the ceiling in this room treated? If not, the sdc's are going to pick up some major hi-hats bashes. Either treat the ceiling, or move the mics down from the ceiling. Better yet, I like to use sdc's not as overheads but almost as room mics - a couple of feet off the gound and a couple of feet behind the drummer. Some prefer in front of the kit - either way, you can tame cymbals this way big time.
Hope this helps, good luck!
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
Yea, beut closing the hi-hats will change the whole sound for the worse. The energy is gone if he does that. In the case of higher energy rock, it always bothers me when a drummer plays a closed "ti-ti-ti-ti" sound. Think of what "Cracker Man" by Stone Temple Pilots would sound like that way and you know what I mean. There is a way to record these guys. You need to experement with mics and placement. As someone mentioned, use the cardiod pattern to your advantage. 57s seem pretty good for this. Have the ass of the 57 that is micing the snare pointing at the hi-hat.
Derrick
We have a pool... and a pond. Pond's good for you though.
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
I've struggled with this as well.
My solutions, to varying results:
Keep the room dry and dark - put up absorbers around the drum kit. A loud hi-hat will splash around the room and thus be the loudest thing in EVERY mic on the drumkit.
Try thinner hats and/or thinner sticks. Explain to the drummer that you want to capture the best sound possible and you don't want them to change their style, but you want to see try to find a happy medium.
When all else fails, trigger. When I've gotten to mix time, and there's just no way to tame that hi-hat, I will trigger a snare sample that sounds like their snare (I actually try to get into the habit of recording the drummer hitting all of their drums individually before each tune [you'll notice how if they don't constantly tune their drums, you will hear the pitch of that snare getting lower as the day progesses, so don't use 10AM's snare sample over 8PM's take]) Blend the triggered snare in with the existing snare, blending it as a means to make sure that the actual hit of the snare is louder in the blend than the hat is.
I think of this as the inverse of expanding. I'm not trying to make the in-between noises quieter, per se. I'm trying to make the actual snare hit louder.
Bear this in mind. If you use samples of their own drums, especially if you're going to use the sample MORE than the actual track, you have the opportunity to make your snare sample from a mix of all the mics, not just the snare mic. I have a bunch of samples saved in a folder, from various drummers that I've recorded. Some just the snare. Some including all the stereo room/OH tracks for a more realistic vibe.
Also, if you're using ProTools or some other DAW that makes it easy to trigger with multi-tracks, you can have the trigger include a mono "triggered snare" track and a stereo "Triggered room" track.
Not enough? When all is said and done, run the triggers back out into the live room, and run it through a speaker placed facing the top head of a snare, and mic that rattling snares underneath. Blend this in with the track and you will be one step closer to fooling the world!
Roger
My solutions, to varying results:
Keep the room dry and dark - put up absorbers around the drum kit. A loud hi-hat will splash around the room and thus be the loudest thing in EVERY mic on the drumkit.
Try thinner hats and/or thinner sticks. Explain to the drummer that you want to capture the best sound possible and you don't want them to change their style, but you want to see try to find a happy medium.
When all else fails, trigger. When I've gotten to mix time, and there's just no way to tame that hi-hat, I will trigger a snare sample that sounds like their snare (I actually try to get into the habit of recording the drummer hitting all of their drums individually before each tune [you'll notice how if they don't constantly tune their drums, you will hear the pitch of that snare getting lower as the day progesses, so don't use 10AM's snare sample over 8PM's take]) Blend the triggered snare in with the existing snare, blending it as a means to make sure that the actual hit of the snare is louder in the blend than the hat is.
I think of this as the inverse of expanding. I'm not trying to make the in-between noises quieter, per se. I'm trying to make the actual snare hit louder.
Bear this in mind. If you use samples of their own drums, especially if you're going to use the sample MORE than the actual track, you have the opportunity to make your snare sample from a mix of all the mics, not just the snare mic. I have a bunch of samples saved in a folder, from various drummers that I've recorded. Some just the snare. Some including all the stereo room/OH tracks for a more realistic vibe.
Also, if you're using ProTools or some other DAW that makes it easy to trigger with multi-tracks, you can have the trigger include a mono "triggered snare" track and a stereo "Triggered room" track.
Not enough? When all is said and done, run the triggers back out into the live room, and run it through a speaker placed facing the top head of a snare, and mic that rattling snares underneath. Blend this in with the track and you will be one step closer to fooling the world!
Roger
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
None of these ideas are guaranteed (except #4), but you may find them helpful:
1. Put patches of gaff (NOT duct) tape around the inside of the hats where they contact each other to deaden them. The trick is to not deaden the hat completely. Yes, it's a desperate measure, but this is a desperate time, innit?
2. Find the lightest hats you can, and make the drummer use them.
3. If you have the luxury of separate headphone mixes for all the players, mic the hat (don't send to tape) and put it in his cans REALLY LOUD.
4. Break his right wrist (or left, for a southpaw). That'll probably fuck up his tom rolls too, but it WILL fix the hat bashing.
5. If all else fails, try the reamp trick. Create a gated aux send of the snare track- gate off everything but the stick attack. Run it out to a speaker, put the snare on top of it. Play loud enough for the impulse to "trigger" the snare as if it was being played. Mic to taste and run to another track.
I've done all of these (well, except one- I won't say which, though) with varying degrees of success. Good luck!
1. Put patches of gaff (NOT duct) tape around the inside of the hats where they contact each other to deaden them. The trick is to not deaden the hat completely. Yes, it's a desperate measure, but this is a desperate time, innit?
2. Find the lightest hats you can, and make the drummer use them.
3. If you have the luxury of separate headphone mixes for all the players, mic the hat (don't send to tape) and put it in his cans REALLY LOUD.
4. Break his right wrist (or left, for a southpaw). That'll probably fuck up his tom rolls too, but it WILL fix the hat bashing.
5. If all else fails, try the reamp trick. Create a gated aux send of the snare track- gate off everything but the stick attack. Run it out to a speaker, put the snare on top of it. Play loud enough for the impulse to "trigger" the snare as if it was being played. Mic to taste and run to another track.
I've done all of these (well, except one- I won't say which, though) with varying degrees of success. Good luck!
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
Zildjian makes a recording series hi-hat that is smaller (8"-10" I can't remember). they are a lot quieter, but still sound really nice. I'd invest in a set of those to have on hand for such occasions, they're not all that expensive either.
"If you will starve unless you become a rock star, then you have bigger problems than whether or not you are a rock star. " - Steve Albini
-
- zen recordist
- Posts: 6671
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 11:15 am
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
i nominate this for best idea on a page of good ideas. it's worked well for me lots of times. the hihat might still be too loud, but it should at least be a lot more agreeable sounding than it'd be with the overheads...uh...overhead.trashy wrote: I like to use sdc's not as overheads but almost as room mics - a couple of feet off the gound and a couple of feet behind the drummer. Some prefer in front of the kit - either way, you can tame cymbals this way big time.
then tell the drummer to listen to steve shelley and close the damn things already.
- trashy
- dead but not forgotten
- Posts: 2128
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 10:30 am
- Location: Red Bluff, CA
- Contact:
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
[quote="MoreSpaceEcho"}
then tell the drummer to listen to steve shelley and close the damn things already. [/quote]
HA HA! YESH!
(thanks for the nod.)
then tell the drummer to listen to steve shelley and close the damn things already. [/quote]
HA HA! YESH!
(thanks for the nod.)
- No Wave Casio Kitsch
- re-cappin' neve
- Posts: 686
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:49 pm
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
I don't think asking the drummer to alter his playing style would be a very effective solution to the problem. You don't want him being tentative or playing anxious. And even if you could convince him to change his style he would most likely slip back into old habits rather quickly.
I think your best bet would be to use a combination of many of the ideas already suggested here. Use a cardiod on top, under-mic the snare as well and see how much you can work with the sound by playing with the levels on both of those as well as the other mics.
Triggering a sample is another good idea. If you really want to get anal about it and you have a sampler that will allow you to do velocity crossfading you can record a few snare hits (soft, medium, hard) which can help add to the realism of sampled material, but you can probably get a good sound by combining the various mics with just the one sample or none at all.
-Giahni
I think your best bet would be to use a combination of many of the ideas already suggested here. Use a cardiod on top, under-mic the snare as well and see how much you can work with the sound by playing with the levels on both of those as well as the other mics.
Triggering a sample is another good idea. If you really want to get anal about it and you have a sampler that will allow you to do velocity crossfading you can record a few snare hits (soft, medium, hard) which can help add to the realism of sampled material, but you can probably get a good sound by combining the various mics with just the one sample or none at all.
-Giahni
Who cares what it sounds like soloed?
Freelance Recording/Production
Assistant Studio Manager - ShangriLA Studios
Freelance Recording/Production
Assistant Studio Manager - ShangriLA Studios
- JGriffin
- zen recordist
- Posts: 6739
- Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:44 pm
- Location: criticizing globally, offending locally
- Contact:
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
I wonder if miking the hat and phase-reversing the hat mic would have any effect...I dunno.
At the moment I am just surprised that the suggestion to alter the drummer's playing style hasn't erupted into the same sort of flame wars we've seen when it's been suggested that a guitarist use a small amp or something similar. We must have fewer drummers around here.
At the moment I am just surprised that the suggestion to alter the drummer's playing style hasn't erupted into the same sort of flame wars we've seen when it's been suggested that a guitarist use a small amp or something similar. We must have fewer drummers around here.
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
- soundguy
- ghost haunting audio students
- Posts: 3182
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 12:50 pm
- Location: NYC
- Contact:
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
I have found that figure 8's have the best rejection in their null, if you really need to get the hat out of there, you could try a figure 8 positioned to reject the most hat. This might invite other problems as well though. If you cant get a good balance with close mics because of the players style, move the mics back and crank up the compressors. Generally a problem solver. You'll have to work harder at mic placement though.
dave
dave
-
- gimme a little kick & snare
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:58 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
Don't ask the drummer to change his style or close the hi-hat! I wish more drummers bashed the shit out of an open hi-hat - it can up the energy of the laziest band tenfold. Listen to Joy Division or Bauhaus...imagine them playing closed.
-
- gettin' sounds
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:08 pm
- Location: Taxi cab, IL
- Contact:
Re: Recording a hi-hat basher!!!!
Don't mic the hats. This came recommended to me from Steve at Electrical. Works like a charm.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests