Could someone please explain the Linux-audio obsessination?

[rparker]

sserendipity,

If the question wasn't fair, the response would suck.

As proof of the pudding check out http://www.iaxs.net/~rparker/coldduck.ogg.

It's straight jazz recorded live in a bar. I brought my Linux setup to the gig, used my mics with a split snake and setup a temporary control room in the basement.

From mix to .ogg file I've got roughly an hour into this version so it's a rough mix. When I edit the live video footage, I'll do the final mix. Despite it being rough, I think it demonstrates that Linux audio tools are becoming competitive.

The Players
Terrace Martin on Alto Sax
Terrace is Snoop Doggy Dog's music director and plays keyboards in that band. He also plays with Gerald Wilson's big band. At the age of 17 he played with Billy Higgins, the most recorded drummer in Jazz, and Cedar Walton.

Curly Martin on Drums
Curly is a professional drummer/percussionist. The following is a *very* partial sampling from his resume.

JAZZ
Johnny Hammond Smith
Bobby Lyle
Cannonball Adderly
Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson
Calvin Keys
Gene Harris
Ahmad Jamahl
Steppin
East West Band

BLUES
Little Milton
Bobby Bland
Elmore James
Paul Butterfield
B.B. King

R & B
Willie Hutch
Marvin Gay
Dionne Warwick
Etta James
Wilson Picket
Millie Jackson
Johnny Taylor

UNCATEGORIZED
Little Richard
Canon Ball Aderly
Percy Mayfield
Big Joe Turner
Roland Kirk
Babby Face Wittet
Guitar Shorty
Vernon Garret
Buddy Miles
Big Mama Thorton
Calvin Keys
The Drifters
The Coasters
The Platters

Sam Anthony Salomone on Organ
I don't know anything about Sam except that he's been playing for more than 40 years. When I offered to teach him Smoke On the Water by Deep Purple, he passed. Go figure!

Ron Parker
Mirror Image Recording Studios

[jmiller]

This is unbelievable. Dear linux masters, please stick around! This computer forum suddenly got interesting. WOW.

I've got an older P2 machine running Fedora. It runs really well but slightly sluggish. I got Planet CCRMA for it, and when i started reading the installation process, i got totally lost (like, within a couple paragraphs). I had considered myself to be fairly computer proficient having built and repaired a lot of pcs and such, but this made me feel like a monkey at a typewriter, or a dog who just saw a card trick.

My initial flirtation with linux got me very interested and enthusiastic about it, but in my experience a lot of the descriptions online that i've found seem to be written by genius astrophysists and the everyman like me kinda gets lost.

So, i'm glad you guys are here

[eviltwin]

On Planet CCRMA just follow the directions very carefully and you should be OK. If you need more detailed help just join the Linux Audio Users mailing list and ask away. It's a very user friendly list.

Jan Depner

[operator_tape]

On Planet CCRMA just follow the directions very carefully and you should be OK. If you need more detailed help just join the Linux Audio Users mailing list and ask away. It's a very user friendly list.

Jan Depner

I know I will

[Winstontaneous]

I've got an older P2 machine running Fedora. It runs really well but slightly sluggish. I got Planet CCRMA for it, and when i started reading the installation process, i got totally lost (like, within a couple paragraphs). I had considered myself to be fairly computer proficient having built and repaired a lot of pcs and such, but this made me feel like a monkey at a typewriter, or a dog who just saw a card trick.
:

I'm in the process of installing Planet CCRMA, too, on a 4 year old P3. If I pull it off successfully I might try installing Gentoo, which is supposed to be one of the best all-purpose Linux distros, but also the most complicated to install. While I already have Fedora Core 2 (first kind of Linux I tried) I decided to go with Red Hat 9 for the CCRMA install because it looks like Fernando at CCRMA is still working out some kinks in FC2. I think the FC1 version is pretty solid.

I was all gung-ho to get a Linux music system together but after trying out Agnula DeMuDi I realized I should probably develop some skills on the UNIX command line first so I could bend the programs to my will. If you haven't done so already it will really make the CCRMA install (and most online Linux discussions) a lot easier to understand. If you're looking for all-purpose Linux info I'd highly recommend Christopher Negus' Red Hat/Fedora Bibles (published by Wiley) or Daniel J. Barrett's Essential Commands Linux Pocket Guide (O'Reilly).

[ladewd]

Wow, I'm impressed by this thread. I have a linux box here in my house, which has been relegated to file/ftp server. I have enough experience with unix/linux to be somewhat dangerous, but I've always been the adventurous sort.

Thank you all for the information and links. I think I'll jump on the linux bandwagon and subscribe to those mail lists. I have a lot more to learn about it.

CA

[takeout]

I love this thread. Most informative thing I've ever read on this board.

Possibly off-topic, and not in the spirit of open source, but... Apple's OS X is essentially a UNIX setup (Darwin is a BSD clone)... could this stuff run on a Mac? I was messing around in the Mac terminal window yesterday; if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

My curiosity is piqued...

[FishB8]

Some of it can. It really depends upon the software and if it supports core audio. If an app is strictly and ALSA app, then no. ALSA is strictly Linux. Jack apps might work though because jack supports core audio. How well it will work is something I can't personally comment on though.

You will have to add some things onto your Mac first though. Many of the apps are programed using APIs like GTK/Gnome or QT/KDE (and others) and also require an X server.

So yes, some programs can run on the Mac, but you will have to add alot first in order for it to work. Some of the CLI tools though may not require much to run on a Mac.

[Phil_Fee]

Hi Guys,

I have just jumped onto this forum and read this very interesting thread following a post on cubase.net. I am a longtime Logic PC user mostly although I also dabble with Cubase SX3.

While I do some recording with real instruments/mics/mic pres and RME/M-Audio interfaces I mostly use virtual instruments - samplers like EXS24 and Kontakt, BIG sample libraries like BFD for acoustic drums ( currently over 50 gig with all the extensions), Soft synths - too many to mention - and something really important to the music mixes I make are all my favourite plugin audio processors - Compressors, reverbs, filters, delays and modulation FX - these tools are from PSP, Voxengo, Kjaerhus Audio and a host of other developers from all over.

These tools are absolutely indispensible to the sorts of sounds I and many others want to work with (just go to http://www.kvr-vst.com/
if you want more info on this stuff).

To work the way I do I need a first rate midi sequencer/editor package to drive my software synths and samplers and a Plugin Delay Compensating audio engine.

This feature set is best delivered at present by Logic (no PDC) and Cubase/Nuendo with Samplitude and Sonor having claims to be in that league. Samplitude has great audio but does not have the midi side down - as yet.

I would like to add some weight to the comments of others here and elsewhere (eg KVR) on the subject of what would be necessary in a Linux DAW to get people to switch from Windows/Mac.

If a Linux package or packages with the feature set described above can be developed - you will have to beat off Windows (and Mac) users with a stick. However, without support for these tools nobody with several thousand dollars worth of software investment in the above tools (audio instruments and audio processing plugins) is going to walk away from WinXP and all their tools to work on Linux - certainly not exclusively.

So what is the potential for porting/supporting Windows VST format plugins? Is some sort of emulation possible or do all these companies have to invest a lot of money (bearing in mind the fruitless BeOS port efforts of Emagic and Steinberg) to develop for and support another OS - one where people are not necessarily going to be eager to open their wallets to support a starving developer

Regards,
Phil

[FishB8]

So what is the potential for porting/supporting Windows VST format plugins?

I assume this is the main gist of your post. VST plugins are already supported in Ardour via WINE. I can't comment on how well they work because I don't use any VST plugins myself. However, if the developers of these plugins ever wanted to support Linux, the work to port VST plugins to LADSPA plugins shouldn't be very hard at all.

midi sequencer/editor package to drive my software synths and samplers

Once again, you could try running these with WINE. I'm not sure how well WINE apps interface with ALSA MIDI though. There are many native soft synths and samplers available. There are also sequencer/editor programs as well. Two of the most populare are Muse and Rosegarden.

and a Plugin Delay Compensating audio engine.

JACK already does this.

[Phil_Fee]

So what is the potential for porting/supporting Windows VST format plugins?

I assume this is the main gist of your post.

Really - the main thing I was trying to get across is that a program that acts like a 24/48 track tape deck and a mixer is not really any competition with a high end DAW and will not attract existing users of Windows and Mac DAWs which work pretty well these days.

You could no doubt record a live performance of a band with such a program - but to edit and mix a studio based project without a lot of outboard hardware processors requires a lot more. The quality of audio FX available now for the major platforms - Protools, UAD, and the native VST, AU,RTAS etc is pretty impressive - that is the competition.

VST plugins are already supported in Ardour via WINE. I can't comment on how well they work because I don't use any VST plugins myself. However, if the developers of these plugins ever wanted to support Linux, the work to port VST plugins to LADSPA plugins shouldn't be very hard at all.

Wine as I understand it is a Windows emulator that runs on Linux - could this work within the mixer of a native Linux DAW? Or would you need to run a Windows VST host of some kind on Wine on Linux? Perhaps this could work like an outboard FX box that you pipe audio streams to and from while the main Audio app is native to Linux.

The other point I was making is that midi sequencing of virtual instruments (samplers and synths) is central to how people compose and record an enormous range of music these days -- from orchestral mockups for film and TV scores to techno/dance music.

These virtual instruments are all driven by midi and the midi editing and parameter automation systems in the better DAWs are non-trivial affairs - the code in Logic and Cubase is the result of 20 years of development which began on Commodore 64 and the Atari platforms and other DAWs like Protools, Samplitude etc which started life as audio recording systems but added some midi sequencing do not compare in terms of power or convenience.

You can read endless discussion, comparison and complaint about the workflow and interface design in these programs on the various audio and music forums - people are not easily satisfied with less than optimal workflow or confusing/clumsy interface design.

High end DAWs will come to Linux in time but they will have to be programmed by people with the level of understanding of the best programmers/architects on these other platforms. Linux DAWs will be developed by newcomers but it seems more likely that Linux DAWs competitive with the best on other platforms will be developed by companies who already have a track record on other platforms. It is not like anyone working in a garage has knocked over Photoshop lately.

Phil

[FishB8]

could this work within the mixer of a native Linux DAW

Yes, although the graphical interface is probably not the same. Somebody who's used VST within Ardour could answer this better than I can.

the main thing I was trying to get across is that a program that acts like a 24/48 track tape deck and a mixer is not really any competition with a high end DAW

Ardour is not a tape deck. It feature full automation of both Ardour parameters and LADSPA plugin parameters, busses, groups, pre/post inserts of plugins or patching into other programs using JACK, transport controll - both JACK and MMC, Session snapshots, etc, etc. It is, in every sense of the word, a DAW.

High end DAWs will come to Linux in time but they will have to be programmed by people with the level of understanding of the best programmers/architects on these other platforms. Linux DAWs will be developed by newcomers but it seems more likely that Linux DAWs competitive with the best on other platforms will be developed by companies who already have a track record on other platforms.

The work of the developers like Paul Davis, Steve Harris, Jan Depner, and the many other similar developers speaks for itself. These guys are not just a couple of guys who went through a tutorial on C programming and decided to take a swing at writing audio software just for kicks. These guys have the same skill as any of the best programmers working for these other businesses. Their knowlege of both programming technique and audio theory is incredible.

The quality of software has nothing to do with the name of the company. It has everything to do with the programmers working for the company.

It is not like anyone working in a garage has knocked over Photoshop lately.

Ever tried GIMP? Inkscape? Scribus?

[Phil_Fee]

The work of the developers like Paul Davis, Steve Harris, Jan Depner, and the many other similar developers speaks for itself. These guys are not just a couple of guys who went through a tutorial on C programming and decided to take a swing at writing audio software just for kicks. These guys have the same skill as any of the best programmers working for these other businesses. Their knowlege of both programming technique and audio theory is incredible.

The quality of software has nothing to do with the name of the company. It has everything to do with the programmers working for the company.

Quite. I am sure a lot of smart guys are programming for Linux - whether they understand how musicians want to work/are accustomed to working is another matter.

It is not like anyone working in a garage has knocked over Photoshop lately.

Ever tried GIMP? Inkscape? Scribus?

No -- which doesn't exactly support your argument :-^

My point is that most non-geek people don't care much about OSs even if you and I do. They just care about what they are doing with their apps and if they have invested time in learning those key applications they are hard people to switch. This is one big reason why Photoshop (which also has a lot of integration with all kinds of third party gizmos - digital cameras (RAW modes) scanners etc and has been around over a decade now) will not be abandoned by professionals in droves even if one of the packages you mentioned is just as capable. Even Logic 7 Pro on OSX which by all reports on the Logic forums is a bit of a crashfest at the moment will not be dumped by many people - they are too invested in it as a work tool. They will hang on in hope of bugfixes and keep hitting the save button every five minutes.

Getting off the treadmill of hardware and software upgrades which has driven the industry for the last two decades would be very appealing to a lot of people. Perhaps this is where Linux based apps will have an advantage.

[FishB8]

Quite. I am sure a lot of smart guys are programming for Linux - whether they understand how musicians want to work/are accustomed to working is another matter.

I think these guys understand how musicians want to work. They spend a fair amount of time in the studios themselves. They also get alot of direct feedback from musicians during developement. Musicians actually drive where the developement is going. Just take a look at the developement mailing lists.

My point is that most non-geek people don't care much about OSs even if you and I do.

I don't really care much about OSs. What I care about is 1) the fact that I'm a college student who can't afford the more fancy software. I spent all my money on hardware. 2) I want to be able to talk directly to the developers and get feedback. 3) I want to be able to mod the software... legally.

Open source software is not a business in the same sense as these other software companies are. They do not care if they control the market and are the defacto standard. What they care about is making software that works properly and meets the needs of the poeple using it. This is why I mentioned GIMP, Inkscape and Scribus. Most graphics people have never heard of these, but they are just as effective for a raster - verctor - desktop publishing pipe line as any of the professionly marketed pipe lines. Their popularity is a moot point.

My point is this: talking about software, platforms and comparing feature sets won't get anybody anywhere. There are plenty of musician's magizines out there already to do the software pimping. If you really want to get a feel for what the Linux tool set can do and if it is applicable to what you are doing, you have to get involved and try it out. It doesn't cost you anything to do so...

[dlphillips]

A bit more about VST/VSTi + Linux: There are currently three mechanisms for utilizing VST fx and instrument plugins under Linux. Kjetil Matheussen's vstserver is (surprise) a server for running his vsti, k_vst~, and ladspavst clients. Vsti will run VSTi plugins as standalone instruments, k_vst~ is a Pd object, and ladspavst is a LADSPA plugin that acts as a host for VST plugins. The second mechanism is libfst from Paul Davis (author of Ardour) and Torben Hohn (maintainer of gAlan). Libfst's primary client at this time is jack_fst, which again lets you run VSTi plugins as standalone instruments, but Ardour, gAlan, and MusE also utilize libfst to run VST plugins in-process. The third mechanism is DSSI, the Disposable SoftSynth Interface from the developers of Rosegarden. DSSI is a LADSPA-like interface for running and controlling softsynth plugins, and there is already a VST bridge available for it.

The gory details of setting up and using the vstserver and libfst software can be found here:

http://www.djcj.org/LAU/quicktoots/toots/vst-plugins/

Some recent changes need to be posted, but the tutorial is presently useful.

Using WINE to run Windows music and sound applications is a tricky business. Recently I tried running NI's FM7 as a plugin: it failed under libfst, but the standalone version ran under WINE. Latency was awful though, and I would not recommend it in a production environment. WINE is not exactly what I'd call the most stable software, and it is not uncommon for an app to work well under one WINE release, only to break on the next one. Kinda like Windows itself... ;-)

Still, there are some apps that run quite nicely under some versions of WINE. AudioMulch performs well here with my ancient WINE from 11-18-2003. Ditto for Granulab and a few others. This is an area where your mileage is quite likely to vary, dependeing on your expertise and your patience.

I hope all that helps you understand the situation re: Linux and VST.

Best,

Dave Phillips