Chris Camden's End Rant

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Chris Camden's End Rant

Post by Foxrun » Thu May 15, 2008 9:49 am

Didn't get my copy yet, but just read Chris's end rant about the abuse of editing to make people sound better than they should.

I just had several people tell me the same joke in a short period of time:

What did the Pro Tools studio owner say to the musician?

"Sounds like shit. Come on in."

I'm joining him in his pledge. I'd say if more than 15% of what I have to do is smoke and mirrors, I'm going to pass on the project.

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Last edited by Foxrun on Thu May 15, 2008 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by RodC » Thu May 15, 2008 10:01 am

"[Popular] Music has gotten really, really, REALLY FUCKING HORRIBLE."

good part

Now if we could just change the rest of the loop in the club, hana montana loving world so that real musicians could make a decent living, I would sign on. But I dont have much hope... :roll:
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Post by chris harris » Thu May 15, 2008 12:07 pm

who's to say how good someone "should" sound?

it's like saying that you're not going to use a guitar amplifier because the player "should" just play louder.

I haven't read it. And, I'm not a huge fan of pop music... but, c'mon. can't we move on from this silly crap? what fucking difference does it make whether or not Jessica Simpson can hit her notes? Really, who cares? Her albums, autotuned and edited as they may be, do provide some entertainment to a lot of people. Who gives a shit if they "cheat" to make her sound good?

do you think that any of the billions of kids eating that hannah montana shit up with a spoon, really give a rat's ass if her vocal takes are comped?

we really need to move on from whining about all of this stuff...

pop projects being over edited doesn't keep anyone who wants to from becoming a badass musician.

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Post by chris harris » Thu May 15, 2008 12:09 pm

and, there are still plenty of really, really, REALLY talented people working in pop music today.

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Post by dsw » Thu May 15, 2008 12:19 pm

pop projects being over edited doesn't keep anyone who wants to from becoming a badass musician.
true

what I don't get is how there's a generation out there that eschews instrumental soloing at all. my anecdotal evidence is from my friend who took his 21 year old son to see Jerry Douglas and the son was unimpressed, and felt that all they were doing was showing off.

but then I'm real old.

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Post by Foxrun » Thu May 15, 2008 1:37 pm

I don't really want to get over it.

I work in the independent singer/songwriter community. Radio play is limited to the lower end of the dial on public radio folk shows. There are so many good and great performers who can really deliver the goods at a live show, I feel complicit in stealing their bandwidth when I help an average or less than average performer with a CD that greatly exceeds what the public can expect if they go to a live show. I also don't want to clutter the already limited opportunities for radio exposure with the under the radar musicians with stuff that really just showcases my ability with software rather than the skill of the performer.


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Post by Jay Reynolds » Thu May 15, 2008 1:55 pm

dsw wrote:
pop projects being over edited doesn't keep anyone who wants to from becoming a badass musician.
true

what I don't get is how there's a generation out there that eschews instrumental soloing at all. my anecdotal evidence is from my friend who took his 21 year old son to see Jerry Douglas and the son was unimpressed, and felt that all they were doing was showing off.

but then I'm real old.
This isn't a recent development. As music has become more ubiquitous, passive listening has become easier to get away with. Back when the LP was the only option, listening was more of an activity than it is now. Now, a lot of people use music as a soundtrack to whatever they are already doing as opposed to experiencing it as a world to get lost in and explore. This is why pop, as hard as it is to get right, generally makes my skin crawl. Its sonic wallpaper for a bad TV show that I don't want to watch, much less star in.
Prog out with your cog out.

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Post by chris harris » Thu May 15, 2008 2:11 pm

Foxrun wrote:I don't really want to get over it.

I work in the independent singer/songwriter community. Radio play is limited to the lower end of the dial on public radio folk shows. There are so many good and great performers who can really deliver the goods at a live show, I feel complicit in stealing their bandwidth when I help an average or less than average performer with a CD that greatly exceeds what the public can expect if they go to a live show. I also don't want to clutter the already limited opportunities for radio exposure with the under the radar musicians with stuff that really just showcases my ability with software rather than the skill of the performer.


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it's 2008. unless those great musicians have great tits and look good in soft drink commercials, they aren't gonna get played on mainstream radio anyway. trust me, it's not the engineers who are responsible for keeping talented musicians off of the radio. It's the consumers. And, the corporations.

You may "feel" complicit. But, you're not.

And, you know what? I really like a lot of music that has been made that way. For a lot of people, apparently the majority of the population, whether or not a band or artist can really pull it off live has no bearing on whether or not they can enjoy the recording.

I know that some people get pretty religious about live performance, as if it takes some kind of Jedi to really do it right... but, it's definitely not a big deal to most people.

If I hear a recording, I decide right then and there whether or not it's entertaining to me. I don't have to research and find out if the band can actually pull it off live or if they looped anything or edited the drums, before I decide if it's a recording that brings me enjoyment.

Before editing even existed, there were plenty of great artists that went under-appreciated and there were plenty of international superstars who weren't great performers.

I still haven't seen any real evidence that these new tools are detrimental to music itself. There are still plenty of fantastic musicians out there. Even in pop music.

These are probably the best times in the history of the world to be a hard-working, dedicated, independent musician. What does or does not happen in pop music has very little to do with my own chances of success.

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Post by chris harris » Thu May 15, 2008 2:20 pm

superaction80 wrote:As music has become more ubiquitous, passive listening has become easier to get away with.
bingo. corporations have created a whole society of obedient, passive listening, consumer drones.

the answer is to teach people to have an appreciation for music again, rather than just wishing that you could limit their choices to just the good stuff.

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Post by ;ivlunsdystf » Thu May 15, 2008 3:06 pm

Okay, okay! I confess to doing a bit of comping and (hopefully tasteful) editing on my contribution to the TOMB Neil Diamond tribute.

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Post by JGriffin » Thu May 15, 2008 3:25 pm

dsw wrote: what I don't get is how there's a generation out there that eschews instrumental soloing at all. my anecdotal evidence is from my friend who took his 21 year old son to see Jerry Douglas and the son was unimpressed, and felt that all they were doing was showing off.

but then I'm real old.
That's hardly a new-pop-music phenomenon. I remember hearing lots of folks in the early/mid 90s talking about how much they hated guitar solos.
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Post by ;ivlunsdystf » Thu May 15, 2008 3:33 pm

dwlb wrote:
dsw wrote: what I don't get is how there's a generation out there that eschews instrumental soloing at all. my anecdotal evidence is from my friend who took his 21 year old son to see Jerry Douglas and the son was unimpressed, and felt that all they were doing was showing off.

but then I'm real old.
That's hardly a new-pop-music phenomenon. I remember hearing lots of folks in the early/mid 90s talking about how much they hated guitar solos.
That doesn't prove anything. Males in their early 20s hate everything their parents like, and will take any devil's advocate opinion just to bug their friends/parents/loved ones. I passed through that stage and so did all my friends. (Maybe I'm still stuck in that stage, actually ) It's part of the normal male development to say crap like that. If the dad liked techno, that kid would be hoarding live bluegrass FLAC files like nobody's business.

Maybe if it were a Nickel Creek show he'd have a point, but Jerry freakin' Douglas? He doesn't even really show off when he plays! He's all about restraint! Sheesh.

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Post by JGriffin » Thu May 15, 2008 4:26 pm

Tatertot wrote:
dwlb wrote:
dsw wrote: what I don't get is how there's a generation out there that eschews instrumental soloing at all. my anecdotal evidence is from my friend who took his 21 year old son to see Jerry Douglas and the son was unimpressed, and felt that all they were doing was showing off.

but then I'm real old.
That's hardly a new-pop-music phenomenon. I remember hearing lots of folks in the early/mid 90s talking about how much they hated guitar solos.
That doesn't prove anything. Males in their early 20s hate everything their parents like, and will take any devil's advocate opinion just to bug their friends/parents/loved ones. I passed through that stage and so did all my friends. (Maybe I'm still stuck in that stage, actually ) It's part of the normal male development to say crap like that. If the dad liked techno, that kid would be hoarding live bluegrass FLAC files like nobody's business.

Maybe if it were a Nickel Creek show he'd have a point, but Jerry freakin' Douglas? He doesn't even really show off when he plays! He's all about restraint! Sheesh.

Wow, back down, man. All I'm saying is if there is a "generation" out there that eschews instrumental solos it's not necessarily solely composed of 21-year olds. Look at REM and U2, and the guitarists in the late 80s/early 90s that were inspired by them and you'll find a bunch of 40-year olds who hate solos.
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."

"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno

All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/

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Post by RodC » Fri May 16, 2008 5:31 am

Yep lets forget all about it, pretty soon engineers will be more of a dying breed, kids will be able to do all this fancy stuff in their bedrooms with the push of a button Crap in - polished turd out.

Just accept it like we accept everthing else in our neck of the woods, Steroid taking athletes, Fake Mex food, ect. And while your at it just keep saying big corp is good for us all! Let them decide! If they cant, we'll let Big Gvmt to do it!

Just drink the flavor-aid
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Post by RefD » Fri May 16, 2008 7:01 am

*draws the line at voting Conservative*
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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