Regarding Mr. Buckley's comment in last months Letters to Tape Op section. While I think most everyone would be in agreement on the overmastering topic these days, (I mean who seriously actually likes hearing their music smashed to smithereens?) I do not believe the M.E. is always the one to blame. Certainly going to the effort to write an opinion letter to a pro is commendable but in this case I think it went to the wrong individual. (Probably why he didn't get a return letter.)
To be clear I don't think Ted had anything to do with the disaster that took place on Metallica's latest record. Granted I haven't heard the record yet but the discussion amongst my circles here in L.A. yields a very different story. The "word" is everyone from the tracking engineers to the mix engineer smashed every gain stage available to them, because the were "told to". One story in particular was that the mix engineer literally was told to "smash the buss---bury the needle". So he proceeded to push the faders to the top of the desk. When there was no more room left he pushed the mix buss into the red too. Whether this indeed took place or not it certainly explains the alleged sound of this record well.
Regardless of the truthfulness of the above story the fact is distortion can be accumulated at every step of the process by every engineer working on the record. What makes Mr. Buckley believe that this was solely Mr. Jensen's fault? I think readers should remember that this overmastering phenomena has little to to with the Mastering Engineers themselves, they are taking orders from a higher level. Whether it be the artists, producers, A&R, or the Record company swine that demand we push this crap into the ceiling; at the end of the day the M.E. is just hired to make the record louder and has to answer to all of the above individuals.
My personal take on the matter is simple...if you don't like loud records don't buy them and don't make them. I constantly strive to keep my mix levels well within the -18dBfs RMS range and rarely go over -3dBfs PEAK. When loudness treatment is applied I ask my M.E. to stay well under -10dBfs RMS. This way I still have a reasonable amount of room left even for a rock record to breathe but still hit mean and hard.
----
Dusk Bennett
Artist Development/Producer
Los Angeles, Ca
"Award Winning Work, Everytime..."
www.myspace.com/duskbennett
Comment on "Letters to Tape Op"
Moderators: TapeOpJohn, TapeOpLarry
First and foremost, as a mastering engineer I concur with Mr. Bennett's opinions, and reject Mr. Buckley's assertion as laughable, and possibly delusional. To blame the mastering engineer for the loudness fad is akin to a team owner blaming his race car driver for speeding on the track. Whether I like it or not, I'm hired to do this damage. If I refuse, better known and more respected guys like Vlado Meller and Ted Jensen will be happy to oblige. Mr. Buckley's groceries come from a different place than ours. We provide requested services for a fee, in a hyper-competitive market. Mr. Buckley's contributions are clear enough that his customers can't just hire someone to do what he does for $25 a track. I respect his position and agree with his goals, but at the end of the day he's not the one supporting my career. Since he's unlikely to cut me a check or shoot me some work for making a principled stand, his thoughts are purely academic.
After writing all of that, I'll get to my point: the story repeated re:Metallica is certainly bullshit. Pushing all faders to the end of their throw is not a mix at all, and anyone whose spent more than 10 minutes behind a console understand that this is clearly hyperbole. It's impossible to know whether Metallica was trying to make some sort of point (as the text suggests) with these requests, because the cited requests wouldn't result in any sort of mix at all (even a bad one).
Intellectually, to the extent that there could be a request to squash every gain stage of every track, it's not an uninteresting experiment, btw. As a part time university lecturer on audio (I work 6 months a year at UC), it sounds like a worthwhile student project: what happens when you do that? How do people respond vs other signals? Does this hyper-limited data compress better for downloads?
Further I've had interesting debates with metal bands and engineers on this topic generally, and it appears there's a different aesthetic developing around the techniques many mastering engineers cringe when they employ (e.g. legendary adc offset clippers). When you dig in it's clear it has nothing to do with Mr. Buckley's work or tastes or the ME's preferences. It is what it is: Deliberately eliminating dynamic range to ensure an album or track presents with higher average loudness than other programmes on the same system. As a listener and ME, I resent the tactic. But if I were an artist in that genre, I might well recognize the problem, but if (like Metallica) I can grab a lot of ink with a stunt like that it might be irresistible. And as an ME the choice is simple: do what the client wants or pass on the work.
Finally, I've read some of the notes floating around under Mr. Jensen's name, disowning himself of the album he squished. While I understand the desire to clear one's name, in this instance it's either disingenuous or unethical. I'm sure Sterling banked the check, and Mr. Jensen accepted the job to deliver the product we hear today. If the request was a problem, he could have passed on the whole thing. If he did less than his best work, he owes the band a refund. If he did as they asked, to the best of his abilities and handed the band master parts under his name, he shouldn't throw the client under the bus for his decisions (again: the key decision was taking the job). Vlado Meller would be happy to do the job, if Mr. Jensen objects, and I've never read him slagging the artist for his work. Own it or pass, Mr. Jensen. But don't call out the artist who paid your bill. It's like a plastic surgeon putting HHH implants into a woman, then laughing at her on the street. Disingenuous and a little sleazy. (see: http://www.undercover.com.au/News-Story.aspx?id=6423)
Maybe if I had Mr. Buckley's credits, I'd be more willing to take such a stand. But I kind of doubt it. I'd prefer to have the opportunity to open a dialog with the artist. I may lose the battle on one record, but if I make my case well enough, I have a chance to save the next one for the same artist. After all, they're living with the thing, selling it day after day. If Mr. Buckleys vision is valid for the genre, the worm will surely turn.
-d-
After writing all of that, I'll get to my point: the story repeated re:Metallica is certainly bullshit. Pushing all faders to the end of their throw is not a mix at all, and anyone whose spent more than 10 minutes behind a console understand that this is clearly hyperbole. It's impossible to know whether Metallica was trying to make some sort of point (as the text suggests) with these requests, because the cited requests wouldn't result in any sort of mix at all (even a bad one).
Intellectually, to the extent that there could be a request to squash every gain stage of every track, it's not an uninteresting experiment, btw. As a part time university lecturer on audio (I work 6 months a year at UC), it sounds like a worthwhile student project: what happens when you do that? How do people respond vs other signals? Does this hyper-limited data compress better for downloads?
Further I've had interesting debates with metal bands and engineers on this topic generally, and it appears there's a different aesthetic developing around the techniques many mastering engineers cringe when they employ (e.g. legendary adc offset clippers). When you dig in it's clear it has nothing to do with Mr. Buckley's work or tastes or the ME's preferences. It is what it is: Deliberately eliminating dynamic range to ensure an album or track presents with higher average loudness than other programmes on the same system. As a listener and ME, I resent the tactic. But if I were an artist in that genre, I might well recognize the problem, but if (like Metallica) I can grab a lot of ink with a stunt like that it might be irresistible. And as an ME the choice is simple: do what the client wants or pass on the work.
Finally, I've read some of the notes floating around under Mr. Jensen's name, disowning himself of the album he squished. While I understand the desire to clear one's name, in this instance it's either disingenuous or unethical. I'm sure Sterling banked the check, and Mr. Jensen accepted the job to deliver the product we hear today. If the request was a problem, he could have passed on the whole thing. If he did less than his best work, he owes the band a refund. If he did as they asked, to the best of his abilities and handed the band master parts under his name, he shouldn't throw the client under the bus for his decisions (again: the key decision was taking the job). Vlado Meller would be happy to do the job, if Mr. Jensen objects, and I've never read him slagging the artist for his work. Own it or pass, Mr. Jensen. But don't call out the artist who paid your bill. It's like a plastic surgeon putting HHH implants into a woman, then laughing at her on the street. Disingenuous and a little sleazy. (see: http://www.undercover.com.au/News-Story.aspx?id=6423)
Maybe if I had Mr. Buckley's credits, I'd be more willing to take such a stand. But I kind of doubt it. I'd prefer to have the opportunity to open a dialog with the artist. I may lose the battle on one record, but if I make my case well enough, I have a chance to save the next one for the same artist. After all, they're living with the thing, selling it day after day. If Mr. Buckleys vision is valid for the genre, the worm will surely turn.
-d-
Dave Davis
bands.theallnightparty.com
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RodC
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I can understand how many MEs could be upset about all of this bad press. I think a lot of the blame gets put on the MEs sholder because traditionaly this is where this type of change is made in the chain of things.
While reading Bob Katz, "Mastering Audio - The Art And The Science" I felt like there was a lot of time devoted to heading off the "loudness wars". This being a very popular book also (I think) make many think that these issues are the MEs fault.
I think there has always been very few "standard" ways to progress a recording from the begining to the end, but now there are even more "standard" and "non-standard" methods.
Can a ME say "I wont accept any mix that has arleady been limited, compressed etc..."
If you make a living at it, and there is no "Moral issue" how can you turn down a project just because you dont like the requirements. I write software for a living, I have to develop for many different platforms and use many different languages, lots of them I really think suck, but hey, I have to pay the bills.
While reading Bob Katz, "Mastering Audio - The Art And The Science" I felt like there was a lot of time devoted to heading off the "loudness wars". This being a very popular book also (I think) make many think that these issues are the MEs fault.
I think there has always been very few "standard" ways to progress a recording from the begining to the end, but now there are even more "standard" and "non-standard" methods.
Can a ME say "I wont accept any mix that has arleady been limited, compressed etc..."
If you make a living at it, and there is no "Moral issue" how can you turn down a project just because you dont like the requirements. I write software for a living, I have to develop for many different platforms and use many different languages, lots of them I really think suck, but hey, I have to pay the bills.
'Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones'
http://www.beyondsanityproductions.com
http://www.myspace.com/beyondsanity
http://www.beyondsanityproductions.com
http://www.myspace.com/beyondsanity
au contraire, mon frere...
I argue that when one accepts work (knowing the sources were compromised upon receipt), cashes the check and accepts the credit on a big selling customer, its a moral failure to slag the artist publicly.
My name is on plenty of terrible records. I've never dared criticize those artists work after cashing their checks, but I have also turned down work I didn't wish to be associated with. I'm free to slag the racists, haters and clueless hacks I turn away, but it's hypocritical and sleazy to point fingers after banking the bill. The time to speak up is when the job comes in, not after 100,000s of copies have been pressed with your name on them. Mr. Jensen had an opportunity to make an honest stand. He cashed the check THEN made his stand.
It appears the band may have at least accepted Mr. Jensen's comments in stride. Considering the original venue for the statements, a Metallica fan-board, he may have gotten dispensation to confess and clear his name, after unanticipated negative press appeared in reaction to the band's decisions which Mr. Jensen dutifully carried out. If so, this is a very classy move by Metallica. Nonetheless, Mr. Jensen could have responded in a much classier, and less defensive way. He chose CYA. His simple deflection needlessly tossed his patrons under the bus. He's a sharp guy who can do better.
If it's not a moral issue, it's certainly a statement on professionalism, discretion, and approach. From a professional perspective, I find it repugnant. Do hookers complain about their john's junk and expect to continue getting work from other johns? That's what's going on here. Man up Sterling, ye house of After Hours indie specials! Either turn down the work or take your lumps and shut up after you cash the check.
-d-
I argue that when one accepts work (knowing the sources were compromised upon receipt), cashes the check and accepts the credit on a big selling customer, its a moral failure to slag the artist publicly.
My name is on plenty of terrible records. I've never dared criticize those artists work after cashing their checks, but I have also turned down work I didn't wish to be associated with. I'm free to slag the racists, haters and clueless hacks I turn away, but it's hypocritical and sleazy to point fingers after banking the bill. The time to speak up is when the job comes in, not after 100,000s of copies have been pressed with your name on them. Mr. Jensen had an opportunity to make an honest stand. He cashed the check THEN made his stand.
It appears the band may have at least accepted Mr. Jensen's comments in stride. Considering the original venue for the statements, a Metallica fan-board, he may have gotten dispensation to confess and clear his name, after unanticipated negative press appeared in reaction to the band's decisions which Mr. Jensen dutifully carried out. If so, this is a very classy move by Metallica. Nonetheless, Mr. Jensen could have responded in a much classier, and less defensive way. He chose CYA. His simple deflection needlessly tossed his patrons under the bus. He's a sharp guy who can do better.
If it's not a moral issue, it's certainly a statement on professionalism, discretion, and approach. From a professional perspective, I find it repugnant. Do hookers complain about their john's junk and expect to continue getting work from other johns? That's what's going on here. Man up Sterling, ye house of After Hours indie specials! Either turn down the work or take your lumps and shut up after you cash the check.
-d-
Dave Davis
bands.theallnightparty.com
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RodC
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I think you mis-understood my comment, I was only stating that its tough to turn down work when it pays your bills. Not sure I would "slag" and artist either. I too have helped out with many projects that I really didnt want my name on in the end lol. I wasnt commenting on the treatment after the fact.daved wrote:au contraire, mon frere...
I argue that when one accepts work (knowing the sources were compromised upon receipt), cashes the check and accepts the credit on a big selling customer, its a moral failure to slag the artist publicly.
'Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones'
http://www.beyondsanityproductions.com
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RodC
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Those bastards! they killed music.Dakota wrote:Society made us do it.
'Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones'
http://www.beyondsanityproductions.com
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http://www.beyondsanityproductions.com
http://www.myspace.com/beyondsanity
FWIW when this alleged "situation" was communicated to me I said the same thing. The engineer was pretty adamant about the whole experience...as if he was in the room when it happened. My best guess is the engineer just locked everything to a VCA and turned the mix "up". I've been in similar spots before and just say, "alright, whatever you want".daved wrote:
After writing all of that, I'll get to my point: the story repeated re:Metallica is certainly bullshit. Pushing all faders to the end of their throw is not a mix at all, and anyone whose spent more than 10 minutes behind a console understand that this is clearly hyperbole. It's impossible to know whether Metallica was trying to make some sort of point (as the text suggests) with these requests, because the cited requests wouldn't result in any sort of mix at all (even a bad one).
-d-
Regardless of the truth of it we all know this happens way too often. How many of us haven't been given sessions tracked by the latest batch of "rock skewl engineers" or musicians that are significantly distorted, smashed, and otherwise useless because of the "engineers" inexperience with gain staging. Probably more of us than would like to admit to it.
That being said I don't actually find this Metallica story being all that hard to believe. It's not like the state of modern engineering focuses on quality work anyways.
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RodC
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What's even harder to believe (and a bit depressing) is that they still sold a shit ton of CDs, (and the majority of ppl that liked it had no clue what everyone was talking about when they mentioned these issues.)duskb wrote: That being said I don't actually find this Metallica story being all that hard to believe. It's not like the state of modern engineering focuses on quality work anyways.
'Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones'
http://www.beyondsanityproductions.com
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TapeOpLarry
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Please note that Ted Jensen did not make a public statement about the Metallica album - his quote was pulled from private correspondence and posted online. There's a huge difference at work in that situation. I'm very careful to keep my mouth shut about clients when being interviewed, but in private conversation I'm sure a little more can slip - though I am highly aware of possible dangers of such situation. There's no official rule book, or ethical code carved in stone, but it should be obvious that badmouthing clients might hurt your own career.
Larry Crane, Editor/Founder Tape Op Magazine
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