Why do drummers go go soo crazy with cymbals

[r0ck1r0ck2]

getting what the drummer wants and what the recording want is the problem...
wow my cymbals sound great...
the fact that you cant make out the words or guitars means nothing...

lou reed had it right...
but i'm sure the problem lies in my coaching of the drummer...(or lack thereof.)


anyone got any tips on that...
drug recommendations?

[Mark Alan Miller]

yo Mark that wasn't aimed toward you..I didn't even read what you wrote..just commenting in general, showing another side of the issue, for the benefit of another pov in the discussion here..

there are no absolute rules or truths with any of this crap..just a personal choice and taste in sound and philosophy..

I didn't think it was aimed at me, hence the "don't take this personally".
And I agree - this is a good discussion and all these different facets need to be aired.
There is such a continuum of potential approaches and philosophies, that's for sure.

I do completely agree that one's ego should not command in a situation where one's job is to please the client. That's why I had to comment - I agree with that! I elaborated merely to point out that by instructing the drummer to adapt their technique might in fact, be misconstrued as an act of 'engineer ego' when it really is to help the band get what they're after (sometimes whether they really know what they're after or not.)

In any event, sorry if I wasn't clear enough about that!

getting what the drummer wants and what the recording want is the problem... *snip*
but i'm sure the problem lies in my coaching of the drummer...(or lack thereof.)

anyone got any tips on that...

Careful, polite explaination of the physics of recording and a good question and answer volley regarding the band's tastes and goals, with possible further explaination of the physics of recording to follow.
Polite being an operative word. Respectful being another.

[Phred]

I think I might print this thread out and hand it to the drummer of the band I'm about to record, you know, as a pre-emptive strike.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and views!

[r0ck1r0ck2]

thanks again everybody...

the idea of adjusting the angle of the cymbals got me curious..

are there specific techniques that would help the drummer make it?
i've heard of people putting coins in the hats?
types of sticks that he normally wouldnt use?

he's a good and sensetive drummer with a good feel for the material..
but this song is really loud and fast (bad brains demos inspired?)
and thats not the type of shit he's used to...
he can do it...but the cymbals go crazy..
thats fine live.....a pain in the studio

got another session on tuesday....i can't wait...

[I'm Painting Again]

thanks again everybody...

the idea of adjusting the angle of the cymbals got me curious..

are there specific techniques that would help the drummer make it?
i've heard of people putting coins in the hats?
types of sticks that he normally wouldnt use?

he's a good and sensetive drummer with a good feel for the material..
but this song is really loud and fast (bad brains demos inspired?)
and thats not the type of shit he's used to...
he can do it...but the cymbals go crazy..
thats fine live.....a pain in the studio

got another session on tuesday....i can't wait...

yeah man all that stuff really does help if they are used to and can only play hard and nasty..

i put foam under the cymbals sometimes, felt between the hats, angle the things, give them jazz sticks(which they will "termite" fast), deadeningg the area around the kit helps a great deal..

[I'm Painting Again]

In any event, sorry if I wasn't clear enough about that!

somtimes i'm not clear..i think thats the problem..I think I get what your sayin'..I'm not taking your thoughts badly trust me!! I think all your insight is awesome..

[drumsound]

I don't have a problem with "telling a cymbalist how to cymbal" (great line BTW). I explain that I'm looking at the big picture and drawing from my vast and varied experience. I will often have players tell me what they are looking for and telling me if they don't like something. I believe that is also valid.

When I have a band in the studio I believe my self to be a temporary member of the group and that wee are all trying to make the best record that that group (myself included) can make at that particular point in time. Sometimes that means telling people what to do some times that means being told what to do.

[knobtwirler]

I'm just gonna start gaffer taping their cymbals.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

mouth too...

and on that note...
my drummer humms...
checking the mics...
hear him humming the song....love it..

if he keeps the cymbals down just a touch i'll be able to make sure that gets on the record...cause i'm soo crazy about it...

[The Real MC]

It's not always the drummer's fault.

One, it's the old "volume war" problem. Guitars get loud or their tone starts interfering with the spectral space, so they play louder to compensate. Two, drummer (not JUST drummers!) isn't paying attention to what is going on around him - vocalist starts singing, but they forget to cut back a little. Three, no respect for dynamics or song progression.

[bluespkr75]

I'm mixing a cd right now where the drummer played great but hardly hit the cymbals. I've had to overdub some in there. The cool thing is that the drummer is my Dad so I get to give him a hard time about it .

[r0ck1r0ck2]

big daddy..
who gets more groupies?

[LeedyGuy]

Okay...

Sometimes i hit cyms too hard when i record and NOT when i play a live gig because i cant really hear what im doing sometimes when i record. im not hearing what im playing and the headphones cut out all the highs from the live sound and sometimes i dont get them back when im monitoring, so there ya go. gotta hit the cyms hard to hear that high end.

i always realize it though on playback after i die of embarassment at such an amateur maneuver so then i just tone it down and just hit the targets like theyre meant to be hit and try to pull all those sweet sounds out of my cymbals that i heard when i was painstakingly selecting them for purchase.

anyone need drum tracks? i can do em.

[audiogeek1]

I run into the same problem of the cymbals being too loud. The big issue is the local clubs here do not mic anything cymbals only the hat and the drums. So the drummer get used to smashing the cymbals just to be heard over the PA. When they get into the studio the balance of the kit is all out of whack.

When a group wants to do a record with me I will talk with the drummer and ask him to take a boom box and put it about 4' off the ground and record himself/herself. Then listen. Is everything in balance. Do I hear one thing louder than something else etc... If it is out of balance then work with them. Help them understand that not one thing should be louder than any other part of the kit. It is wierd when one string on a guitar is louder than another. So why should the cymbals be louder than drums.

Being a drummer myself I have done this method many times on myself. I usually do it after I have been playing many live gigs and am about to do some recording. It really helps. I learned it from Kenny Arnoff about 13 years ago when I got to record him. It has helped me ever since. If I can sound good with one mic close to ear level then if I multitrack the engineer has it easier plus the ablility to actually make it sound better.

The other thing I learned from Kenny is to actually hit the drums. He was one of the loudest drummers I have ever recorded next to myself. The tones of the drums were amazing. Also the cymbals did not seem out of balance if he hit them hard because he actually hits his drums.

I just finished recording a drummer that did not hit his drums hard or cymbals. He was in balance to himself but the tones of his drums suffered from that. We ended up getting a decent drum sound but it was hard work.

A little long but I hope it helps. And if not sorry for wasting your time.

Mike

[r0ck1r0ck2]

these are al great enlightening posts and i thank for that..

here's a treat for you