new space, new problems (drum sound question)

[kxlujc]

my drummer and i have recently moved into a new rehearsal/recording space. our old space was larger and acoustically superior, but our new space allows to make more noise, whenever we want...so there you go.

i was getting great drum sounds right out of the gate at the old space. i thought it's cos i was the shit, but apparently, i was just getting lucky. the problem in the new (smaller) space is the cymbals. i'm getting cymbal sounds that are just overwhelming the drum tracks. particularly the high-hats. KSSH KSSH KSSH KSSH!

i'm using two overheads (tried both condensers and ribbons as oh's), a 57 on snare, and an atpro25 on kick. i also tried a room mic about 3 feet in front of the kit, chest high. i've tried raising and lowering the overheads, etc. mr. drummer has tried playing more softly, hats less open, etc. they're still killing me on the recordings.

here's what i've got at my disposal:

firepod (8 ins)
2 apex ribbon mics
at 3035
akg c3000b
2 57's
atpro25 (kick mic)
beta 58
mxl v67
mxl 990

here's some things i've noticed in this new space, as they might be relevant:

kick has more bottom (carpet, maybe? old space was concrete floor)

there's a large mirror behind the drumset.

ceilings are lower.

snare is more ringy (masking tape solved that)

drums are closer to the corner of the room.



any ideas? thanks guys!

[justhitthebutton]

well the kick drum has the same amount of low end as before unless you changed something. the difference is the focus in the new room. which could be from the carpet and lower ceilings/smaller room size. it has to do with the acoustics of the room. the kick drum is one of the only pieces that is focused in the direction that it projects it sound, which is mostly straight out from the front head. the front and rear of the kick will never sound the same. obviously. with the carpet absorbing some of the low mids and upper mids (and a little of the highs) then the kick drum has more room to develop its sound. so thats one reason why the kick sounds like it has more low end. as far as the hi hats....one thing.....take down the mirror or at least cover it. that hard surface is not absorbing anything at all. its creating some extreme first hand reflections. every time the drummer hits that hat, it hits the mirror and almost doubles in intensity. very little energy is lost. if you cant remove it. they a heavy blanket, carpet or tapestry will do wonders. another acoustical issue you are dealing with is backing the drummer up into the corner. in effect you are losing complete stereo imaging by doing this, because you are letting the angled walls redirect the stereo spread backwards. so what you will get is a little of the left of the kit coming back into the right oh mic a just afterwards. put the drummer against a flat wall. if its sheetrock, then try to cover part of it. for the cheap, go to some upholstery/fabric store and buy the eggcrate foam, for like 8 bucks. cut it into one foot squares and staple it to the wall in a checkerboard form. that way you do not kill the entire reflectivity of the room. which is how you get "room" sound. doubt i needed to put that. there are some really awesome books on control room/live room design. i will have to go to the studio and look at the titles. but even just a quick look at these books will help you understand whats happening to the audio frequency in that room. i am NOT being a smart ass at all, trust me, but....do you understand standing waves? frequency spotting? and how a wave forms, hits a wall, bounces off the opposite wall, combines with other waves.. yadda yadda??

[kxlujc]

i can only claim to know a bit about sound reflection and whatnot. i didn't realize that reflections would be such an issue with mics this close!

about the only thing i've picked up regarding the science stuff is that bass frequencies are longer then those in the treble range. i don't think i've picked anything up about standing waves or frequency spotting. by all means, any resources you can point me to would be appreciated.

i'll try the foam idea to deaden the room a bit. hate to do it, since our old room worked to our benefit so much. i guess that's just not going to be the case here. we'll try moving the kit too.

once we've done that, i guess i'll start from square one with mic'ing positions and whatnot.

[justhitthebutton]

keep us informed on what you are coming up with. and as soon as i can i will let you know the few books i am referencing.

[flail]

the problem in the new (smaller) space is the cymbals. i'm getting cymbal sounds that are just overwhelming the drum tracks. particularly the high-hats. KSSH KSSH KSSH KSSH!

i'm using two overheads (tried both condensers and ribbons as oh's), a 57 on snare, and an atpro25 on kick. i also tried a room mic about 3 feet in front of the kit, chest high. i've tried raising and lowering the overheads, etc. mr. drummer has tried playing more softly, hats less open, etc. they're still killing me on the recordings.

IMHO you could be using too many mics. Remember unless you gate everything, every one of your mics is getting bleed with all of those cymals. Try to get away with less mics strategically placed. Give this a try http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.htmlI love the sounds this can provide

[kxlujc]

ah...i didn't mean to imply that i was using ALL those mics at once! just that they're what i have on hand, and asking which would be best for the job.

no, i'm actually pretty close to the setup suggested by the link you posted. 2 overheads, kick, & snare. i did try an additional room mic at one point, but it didn't sound much better.

i may give that "over the shoulder" placement a try, once we get the room sorted out.

thanks for the link!

[I'm Painting Again]

having a big mirrored wall behind and a hard low ceiling is definitely a recipe for a nightmarish high end..I deaden the entire area around the drums in my medium sized room..the deadness around the kit is great in controling and evening out the way the drums sound..the live parts of the room kept live is enough to get that live sound to blend in without it being too much..it will bounce back in there a lot more than your ears will notice..so make sure to listen through your mics too while balancing your space..

some Owens Corning 703 panels did the trick for me..they are better than foam..the essentially do what foam does but over a larger frequency range..

[Jonkan]

I had the same problem.

I solved it by putting some nice gobos/absorbers behind the drums, to dampen some of the more troublesome early reflections.

The bass is still a bit boomy though, so sooner or later i will have to get some basstraps.

Try to dampen some of the ceiling to.



/J

[philbo]

Cover the mirror with a shipping blanket or it's acoustic equivalent.

Consider hanging some absorption above the kit, as far above the OHs as you can get. Hang up a blanket, and stuff several 2" or 4" rigid fiberglass sheets into it as a test to see if this will help.
________
Herbal store

[soundguy]

if your cymbals and hats are too loud the fact that you are putting a microphone directly over them might have something to do with it...

dave

[RodC]

if your cymbals and hats are too loud the fact that you are putting a microphone directly over them might have something to do with it...

dave

I agree, are you trying to get loud toms? When I use the simple approach with just 3 mics I dont expect to get much out of the toms, and I expect light cymbol work.

If you want to keep this setup take your 2 OH tracks and clone them. gate/compress/EQ one set for the cymbol flavor and the other set for the tom flavor. I would try some multiband comp on the tom tracks. This will give you 4 tracks for the OH mics.

You can control the cymbols much easier when you close mic the toms. I guess there is always trade offs to every mic scheme, cause now you have to be careful about phase and more mics to bleed into......

[I'm Painting Again]

its more difficult but you can definitely get a good entire kit sound including toms with only one mic..you just use the right mic and pre in the right spot..

[kxlujc]

well, i've got the room treated. blankets are hung in front of the mirror, the adjacent wall, and foam on the ceiling above the drums. we'll lay some tracks this weekend and see if there's an improvement.

someone asked if i was trying to capture toms in the recording? no, not really. there's only one tom in the kit (floor tom) and my drummer doesn't use it much. what i'm after is a big kick and snare sound with the cymbals just washing nicely. like i said, we had it before...just a matter of adjusting, relearning, and getting that in the new space.

we'll see if the ribbons or the condensers are the overhead winners in the room now!

thanks to everyone for the helpful replies!

[kxlujc]

success!

it's taken some adjusting, but we're finally getting some good drum sounds again.

after i treated the room with blankets and foam, i did some heavy research on drum mic'ing. this where the big difference came in. i'd say 35% room treatment, 65% mic placement is what got us to where we're happy again.

thanks to everyone who pointed me in the right directions!