New drummer trend I've noticed

[jeddypoo]

it's weird to me how so many drummers hit so goddamn hard. I've been playing drums for 16 years and have yet to even break a head from playing, much less a cymbal. I mean Moony is one thing, but does EVERYONE need to play so loud,

Funnily... i used to be a very hard hitter. Carpal tunnel has taken care of that now, but most people i play with still say i'm the loudest drummer they've ever played with. I know for a fact that i'm playing at about 40% what i used to, but i guess there's a way to tune and hit a drum to maximise it's projection. Plus i AM a big guy.. i guess that has something to do with it. But i ain't no basher anymore..

Another thing: a lot of drummers seem to have to have the hihat and toms like <i>right in front of them</i>. This might be a height issue, but I know whenever I record myself, I try to get that hi hat as far up and away from the snare as possible. Not only does this help bleed into the top snare mic, but I honestly feel like I play better with some distance. But I'm fairly tall and have long arms, so that may just be my luxury.

Yeah.. lately i've had my hats up as high as i can. I studied Roger Taylor a lot recently, and Mickey Curry as well. And they seem to have a lot of distance. These days i rarely do any two hands on the hats stuff, so placing up high feel good, and there's no denying that the extra few inches between hats and snare help with bleed tremendously. What i don't get is right handers who have their hats so low. Firstly, how can they play them like that? And secondly, i get more hats in the snare mic than anything else. plus mic placement is a nightmare.

Oh, and another thing: the open hi hat sound. I feel like I've heard a million songs where the drummer is suddenly whacking an open hi hat to change up dynamics, but it almost never benefits the song, in my mind. One of the only things where I think that sound really works is "She Loves You". But he's just bashing those open hats the whole time. It sounds boss. I dunno. I wish more drummers would listen to records from before either 1991, or other than John Bonham.

this i'll have to disagree with i'm afraid. I find the hi hat incredibly expressive. opening up a little as you lean into the chorus, or opening a little during the middle 8 can open up the groove without washing things out. And sometimes, when rocking is necessary, the open hi hats has a sweeter, more forceful presence than a ride.. especially over rock guitars. YMMV of course. But i'll take your 'She Loves You' and raise you a 'Hard Days Night'

Hi, I have opinions.

and good they are!

HH

Don't get me wrong on the open hi hat- opening it a little is one thing- that's subtle. I'm talking about opening it way up- not necessarily when the song gets louder, but just different. I've heard a number of great pop songs where you don't notice the drums- I mean in the sense that they are working WITH the song- and then the open hi hat comes in and it's like seeing the zipper in the back of the rubber monster suit, and suddenly, you're like "oh, the drummer is there" and it breaks the spell. But it's weird, because sometimes, against all logic, it DOES work.

I personally play with a lot of very slight hi hat dynamics, but sort of within the range of tightly closed to really loosely closed, you know? Not that I'm the paragon of drummer wisdom.

Yeah, the only trouble with having the hats way up is if you're doing a song with all 16ths. But it's still doable. In general, though, I find it a lot more comfy. And my snare tracks sound a thousand times better now. Could be because I finally modded my 57's and 58's, though.

I'm a big guy too, 6'2" and maybe 195, so I probably ain't SUPER quiet, but I always feel like people who break heads and cymbals constantly are doing something wrong, because it doesn't seem necessary.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

man, the 'open hihats halfway through the verse' thing has been a pet peeve of mine for years. one of the lamest most standard rock moves ever. almost always to the detriment of the song IMO...

[wiggins]

platz

[wiggins]

Normal crashes just plain don't have enough decay, unless you're playing terribly fast, or quietly. It really depends on the music, as with all things.

Dale Crover would be fired from a pop-radio band after the first rehersal, but (just for sake of example) Mick Fleetwood or whatever would probably be laughed off stage at a melvins show.

Wanna hear someone that does this right? Listen to Neurosis. 17" hats cut down from broken rides, nothing under 20".

[Harmony Head]

[quote="jeddypoo]Don't get me wrong on the open hi hat- opening it a little is one thing- that's subtle. I'm talking about opening it way up- not necessarily when the song gets louder, but just different. I've heard a number of great pop songs where you don't notice the drums- I mean in the sense that they are working WITH the song- and then the open hi hat comes in and it's like seeing the zipper in the back of the rubber monster suit, and suddenly, you're like "oh, the drummer is there" and it breaks the spell. But it's weird, because sometimes, against all logic, it DOES work.[/quote]

Yes.. after i replied i realised that i didn't necessarily address what you were saying right. Sorry about that. I definitely hear you re: unnecessary wide open hats.

As for the guy that wrote half open hi hats in the verse is a cliche or whatever.. you need to use all the tools at your disposal when playing drums. And i think the hi hat is very versatile, especially for opening and closing the dynamics of a track. You don't think that... that's ok.

I'm a big guy too, 6'2" and maybe 195, so I probably ain't SUPER quiet, but I always feel like people who break heads and cymbals constantly are doing something wrong, because it doesn't seem necessary.

Yeah.. i'm 6'2" as well, and probably up around the same weight (i wasn't always though!). I do hear you. I recently was heartbroken to find a crack in my 19" crash. But i HAVE been using it for 100+ shows a year, for 15 years! I guess that's a good average. And i've broken exactly two heads in my life. Despite being a loud drummer. I just don't know how people break heads.

To agree with what others have said, there's definitely a point of diminishing returns in the bashing drums department. I believe if you hit too hard, the drum physically chokes. Funnily, i sound much better now that my Carpal Tunnel stops me from playing hard!

HH

[jeddypoo]

[quote="jeddypoo]Don't get me wrong on the open hi hat- opening it a little is one thing- that's subtle. I'm talking about opening it way up- not necessarily when the song gets louder, but just different. I've heard a number of great pop songs where you don't notice the drums- I mean in the sense that they are working WITH the song- and then the open hi hat comes in and it's like seeing the zipper in the back of the rubber monster suit, and suddenly, you're like "oh, the drummer is there" and it breaks the spell. But it's weird, because sometimes, against all logic, it DOES work.

Yes.. after i replied i realised that i didn't necessarily address what you were saying right. Sorry about that. I definitely hear you re: unnecessary wide open hats.

As for the guy that wrote half open hi hats in the verse is a cliche or whatever.. you need to use all the tools at your disposal when playing drums. And i think the hi hat is very versatile, especially for opening and closing the dynamics of a track. You don't think that... that's ok.

I'm a big guy too, 6'2" and maybe 195, so I probably ain't SUPER quiet, but I always feel like people who break heads and cymbals constantly are doing something wrong, because it doesn't seem necessary.

Yeah.. i'm 6'2" as well, and probably up around the same weight (i wasn't always though!). I do hear you. I recently was heartbroken to find a crack in my 19" crash. But i HAVE been using it for 100+ shows a year, for 15 years! I guess that's a good average. And i've broken exactly two heads in my life. Despite being a loud drummer. I just don't know how people break heads.

To agree with what others have said, there's definitely a point of diminishing returns in the bashing drums department. I believe if you hit too hard, the drum physically chokes. Funnily, i sound much better now that my Carpal Tunnel stops me from playing hard!

HH[/quote]

I keep on recording drummers who hit too hard and have no sense of dynamics lately. Also not very good time-keeping abilities. which is a problem. But really, it's this feeling I get when I hear most drummers under 30 (I'm 31, incidentally) or so that they've NEVER HEARD MUSIC BEFORE 1990. And the 90s are by far my least favorite decade for pop/rock music. By very very far. So I'm a bit prejudiced. The open hi hat thing is just sort of a part of that. A reviewer wrote of the first album of one of my recording projects where I'm playing everything- "homey plays drums like he's never heard a record past 1970". I took it as a compliment, which it turned out to be. I just can't stand the sound of drums in rock since 1990. Tangent.

Also, I guess I did break a cymbal once- my first pair of hats were super old, super thin 15" jazz hats. I finally cracked em' after a couple years of playing and I took one and cut of the cracked part and made a splash cymbal. Be on the lookout for cracked cymbals! They can be recycled!

[Recycled_Brains]

drummers hitting too hard, to the point where drums and cymbals are actually bashed beyond the point where they sound louder (they just sound shittier), is a big problem with modern music and it affects the way engineers need to work and also affects the way the band has to play around the drummer.

depends on the context. i play in a grind band, and i look at the fact that our drummer is one of the hardest hitting players i've seen/heard in the genre as a good thing. everyone always compliments him on the fact that you can hear EVERY hit he makes, especially on the blast beats where the snare tends to trail off and become uneven dynamically. it just adds an intensity to our sound, and really gets me and the vocalist amped up and into the parts more. it's great in the studio too, because i never have to sound-replace the snares.

the drummer in the instrumental/doom project i play in crashes on the ride.... not exclusively, but it sounds awesome when he does.

the drummer from Neurosis was on the electrical forum talking about how every cymbal in his kit on the "A Sun That NEver Sets" record is a ride. even the hi-hats. he had a bunch of 18" rides machined-down to the sizes he wanted. sounds tits.

-Ryan

[wiggins]

Way tits.

I'm bad at UTFSF on Electrical, but I remember that thread. Jason's a nice guy.

[jeddypoo]

Of course there's some truth to that, but it's also a matter of personal aesthetic, you know? I mean obviously we'd be idiots to think there was a "right" way to play drums. I was specifically talking about bashers in pop bands who are NOT Kieth Moon.

[xonlocust]

Dale Crover would be fired from a pop-radio band after the first rehersal, but (just for sake of example) Mick Fleetwood or whatever would probably be laughed off stage at a melvins show.

well said point. you'd be a fool to tell dale he's hitting too hard, or that it kills the sound of the drums, and a fool to try and get mick to hit harder.

whatever's appropriate for the player/band. perhaps a better way to sum the thread up is, "why doesn't everyone have good taste/skill?"

haha...

[Harmony Head]

Just want to say, that i don't actually think Keith Moon was a basher.. at all. I think he'd played a lot, and was a maniac, and had one of the most unique ways of overplaying, but his touch was pretty impeccable and while i won't say it was light, it certainly wasn't bashing. He couldn't bash and do some of tha double stroke stuff he did.

He did love his ride cymbals though..

And re: this thread. Of course it's horses for courses. In the right context, bashing a ride cymbal and ploughing into your snare is right. It can just be difficult to record...

HH

[floid]

late to the thread, but going back to that high hats thing (is that a pun?) - plenty of beginning drummers i've known like 'em high, and then after about two or three years they start dropping 'em down and down until they're right over the snare...and then the last guy i recorded (who's been doing it what, 10 or 12 yrs and he's only 23) had 'em up high again. Not that i'd ever really thought about it before, but maybe there's some learning curve reflected there?

[MoreSpaceEcho]

if any of you dudes are low hihat having folks....how do you have enough room to get a good wind up on the snare? that was always my ish with having the hat really low, it interfered with my left hand on the snare. now, granted, i am incompetent...

[The Scum]

if any of you dudes are low hihat having folks....how do you have enough room to get a good wind up on the snare?

You learn to "eggbeater."

The snare stick passes upwards while the hat stick is up & out of the way. The hihat stick may make a stroke or two while it's up. Then the snare stick passes down while the hat stick is up & out of the way again.

It's like the blades of an eggbeater: the one passes through in the gaps left by the other.

If you do ghost notes between backbeats, you might want to leave the snare stick under the hat stick while you do that.

For a visual example, check youtube for Iron Maiden videos. Niko McBrain did this very visibly.

[vsr600]

if any of you dudes are low hihat having folks....how do you have enough room to get a good wind up on the snare?

You learn to "eggbeater."

The snare stick passes upwards while the hat stick is up & out of the way. The hihat stick may make a stroke or two while it's up. Then the snare stick passes down while the hat stick is up & out of the way again.

It's like the blades of an eggbeater: the one passes through in the gaps left by the other.

If you do ghost notes between backbeats, you might want to leave the snare stick under the hat stick while you do that.

For a visual example, check youtube for Iron Maiden videos. Niko McBrain did this very visibly.

that just seems like way too much work... I've been playing about 15 years now and I play with my high hats high, almost chin level (had to replace the pull rod in my Iron Cobra stand to set it there).