Sytek gain tooo hot...help?

[snatchman]

anyone noticing changes in sound (besides level) when using pads?

I swear I hear a definite "softening" and a slight change in tone/timbre using the shure ones before my pres..

Been my experience also..! ( depending on the source you are recording)..I guess it depend on the "quality" of the pad tho'..

[AstroDan]

I actually feel kind of lucky. If there is malady to be had, I'm am certain to be afflicted forthmostly. I just haven't had much trouble with my Sytek clipping. '57 on the snare, 421 on the kick, Stapes right on the toms...all right into my converter, or via a compressor into the converter.

I'm not rubbing it in; there's plenty of gear I have that gives me grief to the point I grab it, tell it "You ain't shit! Why are you so loved?!", and then throw it.

Are you guys recording very aggresive drummers?

[I'm Painting Again]

anyone noticing changes in sound (besides level) when using pads?

I swear I hear a definite "softening" and a slight change in tone/timbre using the shure ones before my pres..

Been my experience also..! ( depending on the source you are recording)..I guess it depend on the "quality" of the pad tho'..

I'm using the shure commercial pads..they make the api 512c sound less punchy and present..I got them because the internal pads messed with the sound as well..I'm not having good experiences with pads..

[cgarges]

Chris, which pads are you using, or did you build them?

I have four of the variable Shure pads and one -15 Shure pad.

Are you guys recording very aggresive drummers?

Sometimes, but I also like Oktava MK012s on toms, which have a pretty hefty output. Even with the -10dB pads on those capsules, they tend to be a bit much for most pres I've used--Neves, APIs, Syteks, whatever.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[tommy]

Djimbe's studio has a bunch of -10,-20 and -30 DIY inline pads that he made for this very reason. They come in super handy and by the looks of it, cant be all that difficult to make. Maybe inquire on the DIY forum.

[acjetnut]

any recomendations for some cheap ones? Those shure's are kind of expensive.

[Jeff White]

any recomendations for some cheap ones? Those shure's are kind of expensive.

You can easily DIY pads... check the link earlier in this topic. I was thinking the same thing, but honestly, the Shures were not only recommended to me on this board but also by Mr. Shelly Yakus. He told me that he frequently uses the pads between his fav mic (Neumann FET47) and his favorite preamp (Neve). So that's good enough for me.

Look at it this way, if you are good with a soldering iron, you can build four pads for approximately $40 or less. If you want the Shure pads (which are more flexable), then you're looking at spending approx $40 a paycheck for two months to outfit your Sytek. That doesn't seem like much to me.

Also, those pads sell from time to time on ebay for $12-$20 each.

Jeff

[Leopold]

any recomendations for some cheap ones? Those shure's are kind of expensive.

I bought 4 whirlwind pads from Sam Ash no too bad..

http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem. ... GroupCode=


Eddie

[Jeff White]

In the past week I've scored four of the Shure variable pads on ebay for a total of $85 after shipping, including one today for $9.99. That's half of what they're going for at Banjo mart.

I'm also selling my Digimax LT for a second Sytek. I'm not happy with the Digimax LT (though I love the convenience!!!) on drums, and I feel that two Syteks will be sick sick sick.

Jeff

[emrr]

Lots of people make comments about input pads changing the sound. In reality, you can use your mic with an input pad in some instances, or you can't use your mic, so it seems like a moot point to me. Make yer record!

There are (at least) these things to consider:

First off, any input pad with attenuation other than about 20 db is technically an incorrect load for the mic, and has a far greater chance of changing the sound more than a 20 db type. A 20 db pad IS the commonly seen standard BECAUSE it is the only thing that presents a proper bridging load to the mic, and correct termination to the preamp. A 10 db type will load the mic too greatly, and cause either high frequency rolloff (dynamics) and/or loss of mic headroom (condensers). Anything significantly higher than 20 db may start to cause slight brightening of dynamic mics, and present an even greater loss of signal to noise ratio.

In other words, if you need more than about 20 db of padding, you are probably using the wrong mic or preamp in the first place. The sound source, mic, and preamp are not designed for one another when this problem occurs.

Any preamp with transformer input coupling will likely behave a little differently with the fixed resistive load of a pad, as opposed to its behavior with the inductive load of a mic. Many vintage transformer input preamps gain a little bit of bandwidth on both top and bottom, and sometimes even some treble boost, when a pad is applied.

A 'U' pad (3 resistors), as opposed to an 'H' (5 resistors) or 'O' (4 resistors) pad, is the only thing that really makes any technical sense for mics. Many older literature sources give recipes for mic 'H' pads. Feel free to argue about that all day long if you disagree. The Shure pads claim to pass phantom power. I don't know what type of circuit they use now; they used to use an 'O' pad circuit years ago. Any standard 'U', 'H' or 'O' pad placed between phantom power and the mic will limit the amount of phantom voltage and current that can reach the mic, which will certainly reduce certain mics headroom, and change their sound.

An aside: When I was first researching variable input pads, I found very little information other then very antique sources. Everything in that info was geared towards 'matching' versus 'bridging' loads, and you really don't see the use of bridging pads (what we want for mics) until into the 1960's or later. There's now tons of info and even 'pad calculators' on the web now. I ended up building a set of variable 'U' pads with -6, -12, and -18 db steps for some old RCA preamps. Only later did I learn that dynamic mics tend to lose 6db/octave on the top when loaded too heavily by a pad (-6 for sure, some at -12), and I believe I recall the frequency moves down further in the audible spectrum with an increasing resistive load (decreasing attenuation). So you get a variable lowpass filter for free along with it! Condensers tend to remain frequency stable, but lose headroom with an increasing load. I seldom use anything other than the -18 position, but the other two positions are perfectly usable. The -6 is sometimes good for purposeful EQ changes. Lesson learned.

Of course all pad types will work, so who cares in the end if you get your record made.

[Jeff White]

The Shure pads claim to pass phantom power. I don't know what type of circuit they use now; they used to use an 'O' pad circuit years ago.

The schematic on the side of the Shure pad shows only three resisters, I believe, and all pins from one end of the pad device to the other.

I'm assuming that this is a 'U' pad (3 resistors)???

Jeff

[I'm Painting Again]

thats cool info on the pads..thanks..

I do agree with the "just make the damn record" thing..
but at the same time I do worry about because
I want to make betterand better recordings..I think
that pretty much the point of peer forums like this..
to bring out the details..or something like that..

could you explain more about why 20db
is the most technically correct though?

I'm a bit unclear on that..

[emrr]

Sounds like the Shure's are now U pads.

Todays general school of thought is:

150 ohm mic wants to see 1500 ohm input, which is a 10:1 ratio, and is thus described as a bridging input, as opposed to a 1:1 matching input (150 ohm mic feeding true 150 ohm preamp) which causes a 6db loss of level.

Take the Jensen sample pad found on their website for example here; it uses a 169 ohm resistor to present a load to the preamp similar to a mic plugged in directly. It then uses two 620 ohm build out resistors to complete the U shape, which are in series with each leg of the mic signal on the way to the preamp. The resistive load the mic sees is the sum of the resistors, or 1409 ohms, which is pretty close to the 1500 ohm bridging target. This acts as a voltage divider, in that the signal is extracted from the 169 ohm portion of the total 1409 ohm resistance. The math varies depending on the preamp input; some older preamps might have 200 or 250 ohm transformer inputs that will need a different set of values to achive the same end goal. The ratio ends up the same; and 10:1 always works out to be near 20db.

Other values work, but staying close to the bridging situation gives the best chance of having the mic and the preamp sound the same, with or without the pad. Any other values can change the EQ of the mic, the preamp, or both. The higher you go in attenuation with an input pad, the less signal to noise ratio you have since you are throwing away level.

If you simply strap a 150-200 ohm resistor across the preamp input, you get roughly a 6db loss due to the matched impedance you are presenting to the mic. If you use a U that adds up to about 600 ohms you get about a 12db loss, and an impedance that is in betweeen the matching and bridging situations.

Many more inexpensive console preamps present impedances to the mic that range more from 2500 up to 5000 ohms, and are most likely the cause of complaints about harsh sounding cheap preamps, since the much higher impedance can cause many mic output transformers to ring (narrow high frequency boost) and sound harsher, along with having less bass. Many times the preamps are used for line level inputs also, thus the higher impedances.

The labeling of impedances on modern preamps is incredibly confusing, and differs greatly among preamp manufacturers. It's seldom specified, as in '1500 ohm actual load impedance, intended for 150 ohm microphone usage'. Sometimes you get the intended mic impedance (for 150-600 ohm mics), sometimes you get the input impedance (1200-2500 ohms). You rarely get both unless you do some measurements for yourself.

Vintage preamps always give you the impedance that is meant to be presented by the mic, and virtually never tell you the actual impedance presented by the preamp to the mic.

[trodden]

thats cool info on the pads..thanks..

I do agree with the "just make the damn record" thing..
but at the same time I do worry about because
I want to make betterand better recordings..I think
that pretty much the point of peer forums like this..
to bring out the details..or something like that....

DUH! everyone know you need directional cable to make better and better recordings! UTFSF!

[I'm Painting Again]

thats cool info on the pads..thanks..

I do agree with the "just make the damn record" thing..
but at the same time I do worry about because
I want to make betterand better recordings..I think
that pretty much the point of peer forums like this..
to bring out the details..or something like that....

DUH! everyone know you need directional cable to make better and better recordings! UTFSF!

*wipes from front while standing*