Tips or starting point for RNC on the 2 buss

[getreel]

I just got another RNC after having lost access to the one that used to be at my studio. I have mostly used the RNC in the past on vocals. Now, I'm wondering if it will help on the 2 buss to get my mixes into the DAW from analog land. It seems that no matter how careful I am, I end up clipping the DAW inputs with the +4 output of the Main outs on my Soundtracs. I end up having to drastically re arrange the mix or pull back the master outs which loses me headroom...any ideas? I am a dummy when it comes to DAWs. Oh and yes I've lowered the soundcard inputs and made sure it was set to +4. It's an Aardvark 24 bit system.

[djimbe]

"Super Nice" mode only for that application, and mind yer high end. I don't much like what the RNC does to the high end...

[eh91311]

"Super Nice" mode only for that application, and mind yer high end. I don't much like what the RNC does to the high end...

djimbe. what do you think the RNC does to the high end?

[JohnDavisNYC]

just pull the master fader down. doesn't fuck with headroom at all. the RNC as a buss comp isn't such a great idea.... also, I wouldn't use it just because you want less output... only maybe if you REALLY need a comp on the mix.

I dunno...

John

[djimbe]

djimbe. what do you think the RNC does to the high end?

I've always felt it sorta smears it. Loss of definition, though the "Super Nice" mode isn't as dramatic as regular mode. This impression based on hearing the RNC on the 2 buss alongside other comps of varying quality, price, construction, etc. I think it's important if using the RNC as buss compresion to make sure you mix through the box rather than add it after your mix is complete. Frankly, I think this is important for most any buss compression, or mixing to tape. Obviously, my opinion here, and others should hear it for themselves, blah, blah...

I don't mean to diss that particular box. I have a pair and use them regularly. Just not for the 2 mix...

[getreel]

Hmmm, wonder if I should use something else..I have some others comps but nothing that seems like it would be a good choice in the 2 buss. LA Audio, dbx, Joe Meek(only 1 channel though), and a Valley Dynmite that I'm always using on drums. I was going to attempt 2 buss compression since reading a lot about engineers using it while mixing. Some even start out with it there and build the mix with the compression on the 2 buss in mind. I have been getting good results without it though. I just wanted to see if I could get a stronger level so I wouldn't have to have someone "master" so much for loudness.

[tommy]

t seems that no matter how careful I am, I end up clipping the DAW inputs with the +4 output of the Main outs on my Soundtracs. I end up having to drastically re arrange the mix or pull back the master outs which loses me headroom...any ideas?

Try this. Start with your master fader all the way up and your monitor level a little louder than usual whatever that may be. Now have your individual console faders all even steven but down pretty low. Also, make sure you arent overloading your individule console channels on all your outputs (unless it's purposeful). Now you can start to build your mix up. As you build your mix, your channel faders will naturally start to creep up to where they should be. You will probably be turning your monitor levels down as your faders creep up too. As you are doing this, be aware of your mix bus meters as well as your DAW print meters. The idea here is that you are giving yourself a lot of head room right at the start and the goal here is for ALL meters to start to bounce around in a happy place while you are zeroing in on getting your mix to sound good.

[getreel]

Try this. Start with your master fader all the way up and your monitor level a little louder than usual whatever that may be. Now have your individual console faders all even steven but down pretty low. Also, make sure you arent overloading your individule console channels on all your outputs (unless it's purposeful). Now you can start to build your mix up. As you build your mix, your channel faders will naturally start to creep up to where they should be. You will probably be turning your monitor levels down as your faders creep up too. As you are doing this, be aware of your mix bus meters as well as your DAW print meters. The idea here is that you are giving yourself a lot of head room right at the start and the goal here is for ALL meters to start to bounce around in a happy place while you are zeroing in on getting your mix to sound good.

This is great advice and close to what I've been trying to do. I guess I need to get the monitors louder still. I was still hoping for the "damage control" benefit from compressing the 2 buss when I send it to mastering. I've read that if you compress the overall mix some, then radio compressors and crappy mastering software cannot do as much damage.

[tommy]

I was still hoping for the "damage control" benefit from compressing the 2 buss

What plugs do you have? If you have a favorite limiter plug, you could send your 2 mix output from your console back into a pair on your DAW with a limiter plug on it and name that track something like PASS THRU. Then route the output of PASS THRU to a new destination pair which will be your printed 2 mix. The important thing about doing this is that you are going to want to monitor your final 2 mix outputs as you are mixing so that you hear the limiting while your mixing. You should be able to do this by routing the 2 mix outputs to your 2 trk inputs somewhere on your master section of your console. Route to that and monitor from there.

[dokushoka]

My tip?

Leave it off?

No offense, but on something as critical as the 2 buss, a fiddly comp can destory things in a hurry. I haven't found the RNC really up to the task, unless you're looking for something that tracks your mix kind of weirdly...

[eh91311]

djimbe. what do you think the RNC does to the high end?

I've always felt it sorta smears it. Loss of definition, though the "Super Nice" mode isn't as dramatic as regular mode. This impression based on hearing the RNC on the 2 buss alongside other comps of varying quality, price, construction, etc. I think it's important if using the RNC as buss compresion to make sure you mix through the box rather than add it after your mix is complete. Frankly, I think this is important for most any buss compression, or mixing to tape. Obviously, my opinion here, and others should hear it for themselves, blah, blah...

I don't mean to diss that particular box. I have a pair and use them regularly. Just not for the 2 mix...

djimbe, I agree with you, I've used the RNC on the 2-buss infrequently, but I did observe the same thing happening, like the compression applied to the treble is done inconsistently.

[dirk_v]

I have been getting good results without it though. I just wanted to see if I could get a stronger level so I wouldn't have to have someone "master" so much for loudness.

If you're getting good results without it, then work without it. Ask most mastering engineers that they'll tell you straight up that they can get more out of a mix that doesn't already have blanket compression on it than one that does. They tend to be looking for more loudness potential in pre-masters than actual loudness. Leave it out and you're doing your mastering engineer a favor, especially if it's going to skew the high freqs.

-dv

[joel hamilton]

This is great advice and close to what I've been trying to do. I guess I need to get the monitors louder still. I was still hoping for the "damage control" benefit from compressing the 2 buss when I send it to mastering. I've read that if you compress the overall mix some, then radio compressors and crappy mastering software cannot do as much damage.

Preserve your signal all the way up to mastering. The premise here that an RNC would somehow be "better" than a mastering job is flawed. It simply isnt true. The fact that just running through that box will have adverse effects acroos the 2mix without even compressing should be enough to leave it off. I am not simply "dissing" the RNC, it is just not the tool for the job.... I wouldnt suggest a belt sander with low grit sandpaper if a glossy finish is what you are looking for....

I, personally, wouldnt even run a mix through an RNC in bypass.... especially just as an attenuater.... if your gain structure is out of whack, dont rely on a band aid at the end of the whole chain....

Blah, blah...

[puls]

howdy
If the problem is that you're getting +4 from the board but your DAW wants -10, then do yourself a favor & get a level matching device of some kind. Passive or active, either way it'll probably save yourself some headaches. I've had this level-matching problem before, and even when it's metering & monitoring okay, there can still be spikes you won't hear until playback. Adjusting the faders works for forgiving analog gear, but sensitive unforgiving digital devices still won't like it.

Of course, perhaps this isn't you're problem. In that case disreguard this posting....


jwp

[getreel]

I, personally, wouldnt even run a mix through an RNC in bypass.... especially just as an attenuater.... if your gain structure is out of whack, dont rely on a band aid at the end of the whole chain....

So I guess I will not be using the RNC for 2 buss. I'll still use it for other things though. I'm going to go for it again sans compression and see what happens. I bumped up the level on my monitors so I'm thinking that will help. I used to have no trouble with mix levels, but I have a different console and tape machine now and I'm still learning how the gain structure works I guess.

if the problem is that you're getting +4 from the board but your DAW wants -10, then do yourself a favor & get a level matching device of some kind.

The computer has settings for +4 and -10. They are set to +4 right now. The problem obviously is much worse if I set it to -10. I do have a level matching box but I think it's unnecessary. The problem is with me and not the gear at this point. Also, I should point out that my setup is all analog. 2" tape > Soundtracs console > Computer sound card input. I'm only using the DAW for mixdown purposes in this particular case.

thanks for all the great suggestions. I think it's trail and error at this point. I'm going to work more this weekend on mixes for this project and I'll see how it goes...