Strange Looking Grateful Dead Vocal Mics ??

[;ivlunsdystf]

There's a good, relatively technical book out now: http://www.amazon.com/Grateful-Dead-Gea ... 0879308931

It is the latest attempt to summarize the Grateful Dead's long fascinating history of weird innovation. There's a lot of stuff in there about the Wall of Sound, of course, but it gets really interesting in about 1976 when they were starting to tour without the Wall on a lower budget. Who better to refine a smaller PA for little theatres than the dudes who set up, ran and heard the Wall itself all through 1974?

Anyway, love 'em or hate 'em, they agonized over their sound system way more than most yoyos who operate guitars at high volume.

[Packy]

I have to wonder, given today's PA equipment, how much smaller a packege this could be done in and deliver an equivalent overall SPL?

I'm sure a modern PA (with many crucial developments designed by those in the Dead family) could easily blow the Wall away from an SPL and size standpoint. But the kicker with the Wall was that 1)no two instruments (besides vocals) shared speakers/amp channels--everyone in the band essentially had their own PA, and therefore there was no chance of intermodulation between instruments; this allegedly resulted in a super-clean, separated sound. And 2)with the PA behind the band it also functioned as their monitor system; the mix the band heard was just about the same mix anyone else in the hall heard, so the band knew exactly what they were putting out.

And here's what no cranked up yoyo could ever wrap his head around: The wall had no mixing console--all dynamics, timbre and balance were controlled by the band, meaning there was one less barrier between them and the audience, and thus more directly catalyzing the Group Mind and all kinds of heady things like that.

Oh, and Phil Lesh's bass was quadrophonic. That's gotta be the headiest

[;ivlunsdystf]

How about that apocryphal tale of Keith Godchaux's grand piano lid slamming down unexpectedly during a Wall of Sound gig? That must have been a fantastic noise.

Can we all agree that the Dead's sound turned into terminal mush when they started using in-ear monitors? There may have been other factors, like Garcia's heart slowly creaking to a halt over those final five years. But I think the music became universally unlistenable, whether live or on desk or audience recordings, when the in-ear monitors showed up. The band probably started having more fun onstage because they could hear each other, but it was the end of dynamics and everything else that they used to do relatively well. IMO.

(Then of course Garcia finally started turning himself down to inaudible levels in the mix which drove the PA people crazy)

[Packy]

The story I've heard is that for many reasons the band was actually having far less fun onstage and basically only listened to themselves in the in-ears, or even cutting out someone in their own mix if they pissed them off...and yes, plenty of other factors play into that demise too, not the least of which was Vince (but that's a discussion for another time and board...). But it's really a shame...they lost so much groove after 1990

[Johnny B]

I'm sure it wasn't just the in-ear monitors. The loss of Brent Mydland was hard on Garcia. And Garcia's condition was hard on everyone else. I've seen video of them from that period where the only half the band (Bob Weir, Mickey Hart and Bruce Hornsby) have any energy and most of them look like they really don't want to be there. Especially Lesh and Kreutzmann.

The first 13 or so years, though, are pretty great. And some bits of the 1980's are pretty good, too.

And I don't care about SPL, I'm sure the Wall gigs sounded better than your average gig these days. It's hard to get really good sound in hockey and basketball arenas. I've only seen a few guys manage it.

[Randy]

And I don't care about SPL, I'm sure the Wall gigs sounded better than your average gig these days. It's hard to get really good sound in hockey and basketball arenas. I've only seen a few guys manage it.

I saw them at Alpine Valley in 1980, so they must have still been using the WOS at that point. All I know is that they sounded like hippies. And stoned ones at that. Unfortunately, it wasn't very loud so I had to talk to and listen to ... Hippies.

But seriously, it wasn't that loud. It was easy to have a conversation at normal talking volume. It was very clear, and while you could hear a pin drop, you could also make out the ghosted hits when the drummer did his tedious 40 minute drum solo.

I went to a Dead Kennedy's show either just before or soon after that and while I couldn't hear anyone screaming at me to get my foot off their windpipe, I could hear every note and every sardonic whine that Jello spewed. Unfortunately, I couldn't hear much for a couple of days afterward for the ringing in my ears. In retrospect, it would have been great to see the DKs at a listenable volume like the GD.

[;ivlunsdystf]

I sincerely enjoy accounts of Dead shows by non-Deadheads. Those kinds of descriptions are always pretty funny. I heard a guy once talk for a few minutes about the baffling spectacle of a fat guy with a beard (Jerry, of course) doing a ten-minute noodling guitar solo while the crowd (at least in the front rows) tried hard to pay attention to every precious note. Then, further back in the throngs, there was the antenna farm of mic stands bottling up every note onto Maxell cassettes for later reassessment and scrutiny.

I sort of take it for granted that we all got way too into something or other as sixteen-year-olds (pardon me, sixteen-year-olds who may be reading this). It might be White Lion, it might be Phish, it might be Clapton, whatever. I really miss being so excited about a band the way I used to get stoked about the Dead in the late 1980s. Kind of like being a Cubs fan. I used to get a compendium of set lists (before I was ever on the interweb) and it was always somehow quite fascinating to find out how many times they had played "Morning Dew" on the latest tour.

What we really need now is for h@mmertime to return to TOMB to kill this rambling thread for us. Are you out there somewhere?

[Randy]

If you count how good a show is by how many stories you can tell from it, the Grateful Dead show went to was the best show I have ever seen. They had an interesting crowd. If you really weren't that into the music, you could still have a great time. The bank of speakers alone was a great piece of environmental art.

It seems like the biggest problem I have had at live shows is getting the dynamics to work while playing. If you're in a place where they mic everything you have it's screaming loud with no dynamics and the vocal mics are gated. If there's just a vocal PA, it feeds back when it gets loud enough to hear the vocals. A smaller club version of this Dead setup would be just the thing. You could roll in with your gear and when the sound tech starts asking you how many mics s/he should set up you could just say "turn off your house PA, we got it handled." Set up the "Partition of Sound" and go at it. I wonder if the Behringer Shark actually does kill feedback. You could set up two vocal amp speakers behind everyone and not have to deal with monitor mixes and the such.

(thread back on track now?)

[Packy]

A smaller club version of this Dead setup would be just the thing. You could roll in with your gear and when the sound tech starts asking you how many mics s/he should set up you could just say "turn off your house PA, we got it handled." Set up the "Partition of Sound" and go at it. I wonder if the Behringer Shark actually does kill feedback. You could set up two vocal amp speakers behind everyone and not have to deal with monitor mixes and the such.

When Bose came out with those L1 personal PA systems I immediately thought of the Wall. Looking at their website now, their theory behind the system is very, very Wall-like (actually more "Partition" like ) The cylindrical dispersion and lack of monitors definitely harks back to the Wall's ideals. I played with a dude who used an L1 with his acoustic guitar and it sounded really nice but to cut through the whole band it had to be pushed to the max. If someone could beef up that L1 design just a little bit I'd take the Partition to every gig.

http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VI ... y.jsp&ck=0

(thread back on track now?)

Well isn't it just fitting that a Dead-based thread would get off track a little bit?

[Johnny B]

I saw them at Alpine Valley in 1980, so they must have still been using the WOS at that point. All I know is that they sounded like hippies. And stoned ones at that. Unfortunately, it wasn't very loud so I had to talk to and listen to ... Hippies.

Nope. They only used the wall in the early 1970's. The last gig with it was in 1974. After that, they went back to using a conventional PA. And, unfortunately, there is no escape from the hippies. Even if the band is loud enough to cover them up, they'll still try to talk to you at set break.

I went to a Dead Kennedy's show either just before or soon after that and while I couldn't hear anyone screaming at me to get my foot off their windpipe, I could hear every note and every sardonic whine that Jello spewed. Unfortunately, I couldn't hear much for a couple of days afterward for the ringing in my ears. In retrospect, it would have been great to see the DKs at a listenable volume like the GD.

Yeah, soundman's syndrome. Gotta have this PA up LOUD! Everyone will know I'm a macho man because my PA is LOUD! I actually had a house guy once tell me we shouldn't use our own guy to run sound because most house guys would turn on the limiter if another engineer was running their system so they didn't blow it up. Considering that most house guys run the damn system too loud, this didn't much bother us. All we knew was that when our guy ran the sound, the PA didn't sound like it was about to blow up, the crowd wasn't being deafened and the vocalist didn't sound like he was in an airplane hanger.

Bah.

[ckeene]

I have to wonder, given today's PA equipment, how much smaller a packege this could be done in and deliver an equivalent overall SPL?

I'm sure a modern PA (with many crucial developments designed by those in the Dead family) could easily blow the Wall away from an SPL and size standpoint. But the kicker with the Wall was that 1)no two instruments (besides vocals) shared speakers/amp channels--everyone in the band essentially had their own PA, and therefore there was no chance of intermodulation between instruments; this allegedly resulted in a super-clean, separated sound. And 2)with the PA behind the band it also functioned as their monitor system; the mix the band heard was just about the same mix anyone else in the hall heard, so the band knew exactly what they were putting out.

And here's what no cranked up yoyo could ever wrap his head around: The wall had no mixing console--all dynamics, timbre and balance were controlled by the band, meaning there was one less barrier between them and the audience, and thus more directly catalyzing the Group Mind and all kinds of heady things like that.

Oh, and Phil Lesh's bass was quadrophonic. That's gotta be the headiest

Oh, yeah, I get it. Basically what I meant was could a touring band today do a wall of sound, but with fewer speaker cabinets? I'm guessing you could use 30-50% the cabinets and have a similar SPL.

I didn't realize there was no mix console, though. That's pretty awesome. I couldn't see that working out well for a lot of bands, though.

[PeterAuslan]

My cousin worked for the Dead for many years and was involved with selling off the Wall. He told me that the band would wind up in volume wars with each other when using that system.

Visually the Wall of Sound looked awesome which probably translated to alot of people thinking it sounded good. And then again maybe sometimes it did sound awesome. I wasn't there.

[wayne kerr]

Q: What did the deadhead say when he ran out of weed?























A: This band sucks!

[Packy]

Oh, yeah, I get it. Basically what I meant was could a touring band today do a wall of sound, but with fewer speaker cabinets? I'm guessing you could use 30-50% the cabinets and have a similar SPL.

Oh, I gotcha...I agree with you too on the SPL front, what with all the developments in line arrays, subs, amps and such since '74 thanks to Meyer Sound (yet another Dead spinoff company) and many, many others.

But(and I guess I already kinda noted this, but I love to ramble about this beast of a system) my understanding is the quantity and arrangement of speakers was a big part of the Wall theory--the SPL on stage was said to be similar to anywhere else in the hall because one's distance from the Wall was proportionate to the number of speakers that "reached" you. It was supposed to be akin putting your ear up to one cone in a 4x12 enclosure and then standing 2 feet away from it. While the SPL from the 1 cone is 1/4, you hear the 4 speakers combining their 1/4 volume and thus get the same SPL as when your ear was right up to it...except for the Wall it was about 650 speakers...This phenomenon probably wouldn't work as well if you physically minimized the sound source(s) with smaller and more powerful speaker arrangements, even if they could put out as much or more volume. But this really is all hearsay-I was born 10 years after the Wall's demise and have done very little work in the live sound domain...But damn would I love to see another incarnation of the Wall--as well as a band that could do it justice (could there ever be another?)

And for the record, I actually like the dead LESS when I'm stoned, although I do recognize that must put me in a vast minority...

[puls]

I never "studied" the Dead's system, but picked up a few things while at shows. They would get the plans for the arena/hall/amplitheater/stadium to figure how big of a pa they would need, both wattage & number of speakers. Once they arrived at the hall they would run pink noise tests to determine the resonant frequencies of the venue, presumably to notch those out, or perhaps turn them up during space (it wasn't unusual for the venue to shake, rattle, & vibrate during space). That info was then stored on computer for the next time they played that venue.
The later years (90's) at indoor gigs, they usually had some cabs hanging over the crowd & pointing towards the stage (surround sound?). They also started using pressure pads to automatically turn mics off & on; step away from the mic to play & the mic goes off, step up to the mic to sing & it turns on.
Well, I'm at work & they're locking up.

toodles

jwp