Guitar modeling vs. Guitar Micing

[weatherbox]

The modelers I've used can sound decent, but they suck to play on. So compressed, no real response to how you're playing the strings. I think they're useful for doubling parts played with a real guitar and amp setup because the modelers have almost nothing in common with real amped sounds in terms of dynamics and frequency range, so the modeled tone sits underneath really easily without crowding the space up. I used my old Pod and now use my Tonelab on projects now and again but in terms of making the final mix it's a really specialized thing. I really struggle with the dynamic response of them, but I'm used to the Tele + AC30 combination where string response is totally maximized.

[Justin Foley]

A few thoughts:

1. Are we talking about what works well for a 17 year old in his bedroom noodling through a Garage Band cover of "House of the Rising Son"? Or are we talking about an engineer making a choice about how to most appropriately present the recorded sound of an electric guitar on an album that someone is paying the engineer money for? I'm more concerned with the things in the second scenario. Name calling aside - the albums that present the most interesting and flattering sound of an electric guitar that I know of are acoustic presentations of that sound. (And by acoustic, I mean a microphone picking up the sound coming from a speaker.)

2. The ambient sound of a an amplifier in a room blended with a more direct sound miked right against the cabinet can add a satisfying dimension that is missing in a direct recording. This is often the best reason for presenting a single amplified guitar sound in stereo - the stereo information is apparent in the ambient sound. I prefer to include this in the recorded signal when I'm doing the recording, even for very dense, fast playing (such as on death/thrash metal). (in this style of playing, though, I've found it's best to increase the relative ratio of the direct vs ambient sound. I'll also skip adding a 20ms delay to the ambient mics.) I've not yet heard any combination of modeling/fake reverb that does as good a job as the real thing. I don't know why I would expect to - in column A you have the real thing, in column B you have something that tries to approximate it. Even in a room that's acoustically erratic, I still can usually find a spot that'll provide a decent placement for ambient mics that's better than a reverb program.

3. The best way I've found to learn about mic placement is through documented experimentation. I continue to say like a broken record - the most important tools in a studio are a clipboard, some good clean paper and a reliable pen. Take your mic, take your amp and play a selection of a song. Note the results. Move the mic 1" back. Note the results. Move the mic 3" back. Note the results. Do this tedious proces over and over and over, changing one variable at a time (mic, volume of the amp, preamp, placement, amp settings.) If you're deliberate about this, you will learn about mic placement and you will know how to make choices that are appropriate for the intended presentation of the instrument. Maybe you don't care about this and just want to dial in whatever someone at Line 6 thinks you should want. Fine, but then what the hell are you reading TapeOp for? Don't you want to learn how to record better?

Here's us doing what I've just said on the record we put out a few months ago. Note the grid taped to the floor to compare placement of the mic stand.



4. Maybe you like the sound coming out of a modeler as an intended effect. Well, okay. But I do not think it is a convincing substitute for the acoustic sound of an electric guitar. For those who record other people's music, being able to present them with the option of accurately recording what their tone sounds like as the guitar player plays it (she has chosen the guitar, pedals, amp, cabinet, tone settings, etc) should be the first thing the engineer offers. If I went to someone with my gear and they told me I'd have to plug into some shiny box rather than play through the setup I play through, they would be fired quickly.

Very quickly.

= Justin

[getreel]

I like both my amps and my modelers. I have a TonPort UX2, a J-Station, a Roland Blues Cube, and a '71 silverface Twin. I like and have used them all on albums, but I have to say the majority of the tracks end up being the Twin with some groovy pedals pushing it... miced with a 421, 57, or Fat Head. I just recently got the UX2 and so far, I'm impressed. Their version of a Uni-Vibe is not as good as my Dunlop model, but most other stuff is impressive for messing around in headphones. I find the models nicely responsive to pickups and technique in my tests so far. I mainly use modelers when I need to track silently. Most times, I'll go back and replace the track or at least add other tracks with the real amps and blend them. I love, LOVE, love my Roland Blues Cube. I guess it models tubes but has real spring reverb and a real 12" speaker. I've used it on lots of recordings and always use it when I play live. It's not too big or heavy to carry around like the Twin. The J-Station I'll use sometimes when I want something special that only it can do. It have really groovy pitch shifting capabilities for example. It sometimes sneaks in there featured if I lay down a really great part during a scratch track or something.

[inverseroom]

I think you should get your guitar sound whichever way is most fun and available to you at the time. Increasingly I feel as though the psychological requirements for getting a decent performance are all that matters, and everything else comes later. You have to be inspired and in the mood, or your client does, and if that means playing a Dean 7-string through a Behringer V-amp and Rogue Chorus pedal, then so be it.

Justin, that shit is hardcore. Very impressive.

[tomberdude]

Off topic... just wanted to say hey from the guy from Ingsoc... we played with you at Moe's Loading Dock in Indy a couple years ago... glad to see you on the TOMB...

MEAT
(ex-Be My Doppelganger)

hey! i remember you guys. i still have your cd. nice tunes.
glad to see you on here as well.

which one were you?

[markmeat]

Off topic... just wanted to say hey from the guy from Ingsoc... we played with you at Moe's Loading Dock in Indy a couple years ago... glad to see you on the TOMB...

MEAT
(ex-Be My Doppelganger)

hey! i remember you guys. i still have your cd. nice tunes.
glad to see you on here as well.

which one were you?

The drummer. They've got a new one now.

MEAT

[Kindly Killer]

Types of modelers I've had good luck with:

• Analog Hardware Modelers: E.g. SansAmp, Digitech Bad Monkey. Very touchy like an amp but very up-close detailed like a modeler. Best solution for getting recorded sound live on small scale. Still fun to play.
• Software Modeling, Dedicated DSP in a Box: E.g. GNX4. Jillions of sounds available at a button push/stomp, librarian/editors for ease+tweakability, bulletproof gear in a cheap package. The GNX4 is a great all around woodshedding tool, too, if you don't have a DAW handy. I tried to sell my GNX4 on eBay a while back and was relieved when it didn't break reserve. I'm not ready to give it up yet.
• Software Modeling, Dedicated DSP in a Combo Amp: E.g. Roland Cube 30. Ulimate easy rig for casuals. Make one trip from your car, including bottled water.
• Desktop Modeling Software: Great on a notebook for live playing if you can figure out transportation. This is what I've been using mostly lately, but I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how to get it all in one trip with 5 mins setup/teardown. The main benefits for me with modeling are ease of use and getting a produced sound live. I also like desktop modelers for recording as a way of getting a slick, overproduced sound very quickly.

For me, modelers are all about convenience. As soon as a modeler is no longer fast and easy, it ceases to be useful. I have a pile of keeper amps and a bigger pile of speaker cabs.

BTW if you can cover all the sounds you need with an amp and a pedal or a "channel switching" amp then there is little reason to use a digital modeler live. If you can't do any maintenance yourself then reliability might be an issue, but personally I'll have a backup DI either way. Especially if you are playing original music - how many sounds do you need? AFAIK Larry Carlton played pretty much everything he put down on tape in his heyday with nothing but a cranked Princeton, and you can't say he hasn't covered some ground. My sense is that a lot of players get sold on the conventional idea of what a guitar rig is before they actually get out and work a lot. Two great sounds is two more than some guys have in a live rig.

IMO a show or a CD of original music holds together better if the timbres of the instruments are consistent from piece to piece. I.e. it is better if the composer is responsible for novelty, rather than the guitar tech or the engineer.

[asmara]

I am one of those torn between using and not using my pod for "serious" recording. I love the fact that i can play and record without waking up my family and neighbors but something in me just does not feel right about it. I almost always end up re-recording the part later with an amp. Lately I will run the pod into the amp and get the best of both.. the cheesy effects and the nice tone of a small savage macht 6 (which lacks reverb one of fav. effects). Sure Deerhoof sounds are cool but I really love the black keys and wilco tones much better. good luck.

[I'm Painting Again]

guys I've totally changed my mind on this one..amps are WAY better..

sorry for the name-calling..really I am..I've just been having a rough time lately..change of medication and all..

so anyone who says modelers are just as good can totally SUCK IT!

[RefD]

Runners Four sounded great to me, but there can be only one Deerhoof.

[akg414]

guys I've totally changed my mind on this one..amps are WAY better..

sorry for the name-calling..really I am..I've just been having a rough time lately..change of medication and all..

so anyone who says modelers are just as good can totally SUCK IT!

You're just a complete moron. You say the same dumb crap... just shut up and go away...

[I'm Painting Again]

http://www.lvh.org/

[logancircle]

I think you should get your guitar sound whichever way is most fun and available to you at the time. Increasingly I feel as though the psychological requirements for getting a decent performance are all that matters, and everything else comes later.

+1
Lots of people these days got more used to playing on their POD (or whatever) and headphones late at night when they were coming up, as opposed to sitting in the room with a loud amp blaring, or in this case blaring in an iso room. People play better under comfortable conditions, I wouldn't want to be the engineer telling the player, yeah, but this sounds better. And I disagree with the above comment, that the most flattering sound for electric guitar is amp-moving-air. It can sound very nice, yes, but there are lots of other ways to record/play guitars and many parts they can play in a mix (as I know you know, please don't think this is to sound snotty!). It's just not a fact that amps sound better. For certain contexts I prefer a fake-sounding guitar.

[Kindly Killer]

I thought of another argument on the side of modelers as a DAW plugin: you can always re-amp if you think you are missing out by not having a real guitar amp. That way you have your performance and you can do whatever you want with it, or try different things until something strikes your fancy: modeler, other plugins, taste test 50 different OD pedals into an amp, whatever.

[logancircle]

...you can always re-amp...taste test 50 different OD pedals into an amp, whatever.

Now you're talkin, best of both worlds.