Dead Serious: Entire album with triggered/sampled drums???

[farview]

This is what I am doing, but as previously mentioned drumagog is not triggering the bleed samples in a correct order and causes problems that cannot be dealt with by the phase knob within drumagog, or by sliding the track around.

Maybe I am incorrect in my asessment, but I'm pretty sure that my problem can be cured if i can get the right samples to be triggered with their close mic counterparts. Then the phase differences will be consistent throughout the song, and I'll still be able to individually eq, compress and route each track.

You would need to make sure that you have set the coresponding samples in each gog file to the same velocity layer. In order to do what you are trying to do, you should go with more layers and less multisamples. Then send the sine through an amplitude modulator (or two) to make the randomness.

I would go back and mix the samples together. If you have no idea what the mix needs to be, just trigger the drums for right now and never mind about the ambience. Then when you get the drums sounding right in the mix, take those settings and apply them to the sample files. Then make samples that include all the ambience and bleed. Then just replace the gog files in your mix and turn off the processing.

[syrupcore]

still lost on what part of this layering in flstudio wont do. if you have 8 mics on the kit, each drum layer would get 8 samples - the main source mic and the rest of the mics that picked it up when you sampled it. now trigger the layers. aint that it? each channel in a layer can go out to a different output or you can buss them as you see fit. flstudio also has sampler channels that allow for velocity switching. not sure if that was the problem.

side: I've seen live jungle/d&b drummers pull off shit that might impress you. They are out there...

Will

[rushofblood]

I know it's not what you're asking for, but it sounds to me like you'd like the Platinum Samples Evil Drums for BFD, they're done by Joe Barresi, who did at least Empire Strikes First.

[tomberdude]

still lost on what part of this layering in flstudio wont do. if you have 8 mics on the kit, each drum layer would get 8 samples - the main source mic and the rest of the mics that picked it up when you sampled it. now trigger the layers. aint that it? each channel in a layer can go out to a different output or you can buss them as you see fit. flstudio also has sampler channels that allow for velocity switching. not sure if that was the problem.

side: I've seen live jungle/d&b drummers pull off shit that might impress you. They are out there...

Will

that works for single samples, not multi-samples, unless FL has multi-sample triggering that i was previously unaware of. that would be fucking rad if it did!
that's one less stage in the process!

You would need to make sure that you have set the coresponding samples in each gog file to the same velocity layer. In order to do what you are trying to do, you should go with more layers and less multisamples. Then send the sine through an amplitude modulator (or two) to make the randomness.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!??!?! ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS!?!?!
This is the solution to my problem. I can't BELIEVE I didn't think of that all ready!!! Wow... +100 to farview!!!

If I made every single sample it's own layer, and did the same for it's bleed tracks, I will have exactly what i am looking for, as long as drumagog's engine for choosing which layer to trigger is consistent.

I am amazed that I overlooked something so simple...

This is what happens when you over-intellectualize everything, all the time.

I know it's not what you're asking for, but it sounds to me like you'd like the Platinum Samples Evil Drums for BFD, they're done by Joe Barresi, who did at least Empire Strikes First.

Yeah, I heard about that. It would be cool for fun or for demo stuff, but I would never release anything with that, or mix someone else's session with that. I don't have BFD either, nor do I plan on getting it.

Regarding Evil Drums, I like how Brookes Wackerman plays. I don't dig how he and Joe Barresi made his kit sound on Empire or New Maps. Come to think of it, I don't like the way anything sounds on New Maps... They both are great albums though!

*hums "More Than This" (track 5 on Empire)

Thank you everyone very much. Now I can make some favorites in my catalog come to life! Sort of...

-RL

[syrupcore]

http://www.flstudio.com/help/html/plugins/FPC.htm

[tomberdude]

http://www.flstudio.com/help/html/plugins/FPC.htm

Dude, awesome. I had no idea that was there. Maybe I sell FL short too easily.
I'm gonna compare the drumagog method against this, and which ever seems to be the most efficient is what I go with. I'll post back with the results.

[Platinum Samples]

You should check out BFD - it'll do exactly what you want. BFD2 will let you use your own sounds.

You can hear some demos using our sounds at:

https://www.platinumsamples.com/JoeBarresi.html

As for using it on a record... here's a quote from someone who feels differently...

"Platinum Samples is synonymous with quality. Beautifully recorded , with ultimate flexibilty no kit need ever sound the same. Add to this the secret techniques of Evil Joe Barresi and drummers who suck should beware." - Atticus Ross (NIN, Korn)

Rail

[markmeat]

Probably too little, too late... but a WAY easier, no-math/programming way to add some "room" to the tracks... setup your kit in the same room they were in originally, setup stereo/mono/whatever mic/s in room, place and crank monitors in that room, play back the dry drum samples over those monitors, record the "room" while the drums play and mix that in. Sure it's lo-tech, but it sounds like less of a headache.

MEAT

[manganeech]

The way I trigger multi-layered sounds is to record and edit a midi track exactly like I want it. Then I make as many copies of that midi track as I need layers. Each copy triggers a different sample. This way I can process/mix/edit each layer seperately. If I need to edit the part I make the edit on one, then copy and paste the newly edited midi data to each of the other layers.

This approach may be too boneheaded for most, but it works in most DAWs, and leaves you total flexability.

If you are using a rewired sequencer you could probably route the midi to record to multiple midi tracks similtainiously. This would save you from having to copy/paste the midi data.

By recording the midi output of your sequencer you get the added benefit of reduced CPU load I would think. The only drawback I can think of is that you wouldn't be able to adjust your sequencer's quant/feel/humanizier settings in real time during your mix.

Is this a stone age approach? I don't have any experience with the dedicated sample playback engines like Drumagog et al. I use this technique in PT, Live and Reason.

[tomberdude]

Probably too little, too late... but a WAY easier, no-math/programming way to add some "room" to the tracks... setup your kit in the same room they were in originally, setup stereo/mono/whatever mic/s in room, place and crank monitors in that room, play back the dry drum samples over those monitors, record the "room" while the drums play and mix that in. Sure it's lo-tech, but it sounds like less of a headache.

MEAT

Already doing that.

The way I trigger multi-layered sounds is to record and edit a midi track exactly like I want it. Then I make as many copies of that midi track as I need layers. Each copy triggers a different sample. This way I can process/mix/edit each layer seperately. If I need to edit the part I make the edit on one, then copy and paste the newly edited midi data to each of the other layers.

This approach may be too boneheaded for most, but it works in most DAWs, and leaves you total flexability.

If you are using a rewired sequencer you could probably route the midi to record to multiple midi tracks similtainiously. This would save you from having to copy/paste the midi data.

By recording the midi output of your sequencer you get the added benefit of reduced CPU load I would think. The only drawback I can think of is that you wouldn't be able to adjust your sequencer's quant/feel/humanizier settings in real time during your mix.

Is this a stone age approach? I don't have any experience with the dedicated sample playback engines like Drumagog et al. I use this technique in PT, Live and Reason.

CPU load isn't an issue, and this is already covered in the method I was previously using. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[GoatKnuckles]

find the awesomest drummer from your area and pay him!

[johnny7]

This is totally off topic, but I checkd out "Counterfiet Umbrella after I saw the last post and it is awesome! Good job brosef. Cool song, cool video idea.

+1. Yay, squawk box!
*rushes downstairs to wire up a jack for little green amp*

[fossiltooth]

I don't really understand why you are so obsessed with the idea of triggering multiple samples simultaneously. Just get a great-sounding blend for each drum and bounce it to a single audio track. Then, you only have to worry about triggering a single sample for each drum. If you want a bit more humanity, you can bounce a few hits for snare, a few hits for kick, etc.,

The reason I need multiple samples simultaneously is for separate processing. Let me specify:

The snare mic is picking up the entire kit in an actual recording. The bleed from the kick and toms in the snare mic are beneficial to their overall sound, especially for punch and clarity.

When using drumagog, each track is being "replaced" with it's associated close mic samples, and being eq'd and compressed accordingly.

No, each track is being replaced with whatever audio you want.

If you follow my suggestion, you'll have created a single audio file that contains a blend of all the overheads, room mics, bleed etc., for the kick, another one for the snare, one for the floor tom, and so on.

You know, bouncing, submixes, all that jazz.

By over-thinking you're ignoring some of the simplest ways to solve your problem: Namely, drummers and drum machines.

Basically, you're trying to creating multimic'd samples and play them through a sequencer. Why do you need that sequencer to play 12 tracks for each hit, when you could just create a single good sounding sample for each drum at several different velocities?

I guess I'm still missing something. Good luck!

[linus]

find the awesomest drummer from your area and pay him!

This was my solution as well. I'm doing the final mixes right now and it worked out really well. I recorded basic tracks to programed drums, did rough mixes, hired the best drummer for the job (Thanks Joel!) and had it recorded. Then I went back and finished my tracks. There were a couple songs where I rerecorded bass and rhythm guitars but it was only necessary on a couple.

If you are interested in learning incredible depths of detail of drum programming have at it. I just wanted to finish my record.

[GooberNumber9]

I'm glad you found a solution to your problem, and I feel your pain.

I'm doing a technical metal album with some guys whose drummer quit and there really actually isn't anyone else in the area who can play it. We are doing the entire album's drums in BFD and frankly we couldn't be happier with it. We've spent about two days per song on drums, which really is less than we would be spending on micing up a whole kit and tuning, recording, etc. The most important part in making it sound human is setting the velocities in an intelligent way. Then we use PT's MIDI Events dialog to put about 5% - 10% randomization on both velocity and timing. Then we tweak the BFD settings, and then mix.

Most people we play the rough mixes for have asked who the drummer is. No one has guessed that it's 100% MIDI.

In my band, my drummer has a Roland V-Drums kit in addition to his regular kit. For all of our demos, he just records the MIDI for the drum parts into PT using the V-Drums (in his town house at 2am if he wants) and then we clean up the MIDI and run it through BFD. I have a whole BFD program set up for him. The result is a real drum performance but with MUCH better sound quality than I could ever get with the mics and drums we have at our disposal.

I know I sound like a BFD ad here, I just wanted to throw this out to anyone reading this thread because it has really been a life saver in terms of drums sound for me. I've also used it for drum replacement on yet another project (using my V-Drum module). Basically, BFD appears in most of what I work on some way and it really is amazing.

For what it's worth...

Todd Wilcox