On capturing vocals and acoustic guitar at the same time

[Patrick McAnulty]

I was wondering, why do the vocals and guitar need to be done at the same time? Is it for the performance, artist's request, etc.? Just wondering.

[Patrick McAnulty]

Phase problems will be significantly less apparent using 3 mics and you'll have a great stereo image to show for it.

Why would phase problems be less apparent with three mics? (Honest question, no smartassyness on my part.)

Could it be less since most likely the tracks, aside from the vocals, would be panned?
I don't know much about phase relations, so I could be completely off base with this one.

[scott macdonald]

Could it be less since most likely the tracks, aside from the vocals, would be panned?

That makes sense, but you would still lose mono compatibility if you're relying on panning to avoid phase problems. Right?

[@?,*???&?]

Phase problems will be significantly less apparent using 3 mics and you'll have a great stereo image to show for it.

Why would phase problems be less apparent with three mics? (Honest question, no smartassyness on my part.)

Could it be less since most likely the tracks, aside from the vocals, would be panned?
I don't know much about phase relations, so I could be completely off base with this one.

Yes. This comes in to play. Working with a coincident stereo mic'ing can keep those two mics clean too.

[Patrick McAnulty]

Could it be less since most likely the tracks, aside from the vocals, would be panned?

That makes sense, but you would still lose mono compatibility if you're relying on panning to avoid phase problems. Right?

That is true, I believe. If only no one listened in mono... bastards. lol


edit:
I guess you'd just have to really check for mono compatibility before committing to tape/disk.

[Patrick McAnulty]

Phase problems will be significantly less apparent using 3 mics and you'll have a great stereo image to show for it.

Why would phase problems be less apparent with three mics? (Honest question, no smartassyness on my part.)

Could it be less since most likely the tracks, aside from the vocals, would be panned?
I don't know much about phase relations, so I could be completely off base with this one.

Yes. This comes in to play. Working with a coincident stereo mic'ing can keep those two mics clean too.

what do you mean by that?



You cannot make another post so soon after your last; please try again in a short while.

[drumsound]

I still strongly suggest 2 figure 8 mics. It will give you the intimacy in the vocal that would be hard to achieve otherwise, especially if you want to build instrumentation around the performer for the the Ryan Adams sound. Plus, the isolation really is worth it....

Considering the '0' degree position of these mics on their respective sources, your thought is decent- except you will not get a stereo image in the process AND you will get 180 degree off-axis leakage/ambience.

A 3 mic configuration will allow you to choose cardioid patterns to make the overall effect seem more intimate AND in stereo.

Stereo isn't always necessary...

...but sometimes is really nice. Both methods sound really interesting, with their own results.

I should have put that in my post. It was not meant to slag Jeff. Just a comment. I usually do stereo acoustic and voice in those situations, and a stereo room pair.

[Patrick McAnulty]

I still strongly suggest 2 figure 8 mics. It will give you the intimacy in the vocal that would be hard to achieve otherwise, especially if you want to build instrumentation around the performer for the the Ryan Adams sound. Plus, the isolation really is worth it....

Considering the '0' degree position of these mics on their respective sources, your thought is decent- except you will not get a stereo image in the process AND you will get 180 degree off-axis leakage/ambience.

A 3 mic configuration will allow you to choose cardioid patterns to make the overall effect seem more intimate AND in stereo.

Stereo isn't always necessary...

...but sometimes is really nice. Both methods sound really interesting, with their own results.

I should have put that in my post. It was not meant to slag Jeff. Just a comment. I usually do stereo acoustic and voice in those situations, and a stereo room pair.

I know, I just like the fact that this messageboard is always about exploring all of the different ways to get something done, with results that fit what the artist is looking for.

I'm just trying to be more active on these boards to maybe find some new things that might work for me. That and actually trying them out helps too. lol I need to do more of the latter.

[leftofthedial]

I was wondering, why do the vocals and guitar need to be done at the same time? Is it for the performance, artist's request, etc.? Just wondering.

As an engineer, you need to be ready for all sorts of situations. This specific client, I cannot speak to. But I've recorded thousands of minimalistic songs (guitar and vox) and every performer/situation is a bit different and performers generally don't like you telling them how to perform. Anyway, the stereo pair and 3rd vox mic works well with great performers who knock it out of the park in a single take. Now back to the real world. What if a performer can play guitar but is not much of a singer, but needs to sing to keep time. Dual Figure 8's provide just enough isolation to be able to re-record the vocal track and mask the vocal leakage from the original take. Anyway, knowing both these techniques (and several others) is hardly a fatal mistake (as someone else stated....).

[SpencerBenjamin]

I was wondering, why do the vocals and guitar need to be done at the same time? Is it for the performance, artist's request, etc.? Just wondering.

Yes, it's for the performance. For some singer/guitarists it's a holistic thing, the performance while playing the instrument can be immeasurably better than trying to separate them. Think about some of Bob Dylan's really percussive songs where his whole body is physically involved. Or Robert Johnson. It's hard to replicate this by miming (although sometimes fun to watch). Quite a few singers in bands I know will record their vocals with an electric guitar strapped on because that's how they feel comfortable, even though it's not plugged in.

[roscoenyc]

Beyer M-500 has a real lot of off axis rejection. Works really well as a vocal mic when doing Voc/Guitar.

Sometimes it works for me to have the Singer/Guitarist stand up. It is worth a try becuase often the physical distance between the guitar and the voice is greater when standing than it is wish somebody hunched on a chair or stool. They have to mind their position though.

Lavalier mic in the guitar is another pretty good trick.

If you think anything w the guitar or vocal is going to need to be repaired the best way is to do another take of guitar and vocal and comp from the whole voc/guitar group when you are fixing the spot.

[lotusstudio]

The fatal mistake people make is ONLY using two mics for this.

First of all, use two like kind and quality mics in a stereo configuration (x/y coincident or x/y near-coincident) for the guitar itself.

Then, use a great mic for the vocal.

Phase problems will be significantly less apparent using 3 mics and you'll have a great stereo image to show for it.

He's right. It works very well. IF you carefully position the 2 guitar mics to be phase-coherent, and aim the vocal mic a little bit up toward the singer's mouth, any guitar leakage through the vocal mic is minimal and it just sort of fills in the middle of the guitar sound. The 2 mics on guitar gives a beautiful stereo image. Plus, eq-ing seems to work better this way. I have tried it with one guitar mic and it was much harder to mix because eq-ing the vocal really changed the guitar tone too much. With 2 mics on guitar this is not such a problem.

[Recycled_Brains]

Have any of you ever tried using a matched pair of SDC's in ORTF, but turned sideways?

As in, 1 mic points down at the guitar and the other up at the vocal, instead of pointing L and R.

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I would think that it would help acheive good phase relations btwn. the voice and guitar bleed into each mic.

[telecasterrok]

Wow! a wealth of ideas here, thanks everybody. One poster asked why I was recording both (vocals and guit) at the same time. With the singer I'm working with, it would be a shame to separate the two. When tracked at the same time there is a natural push and pull between the two that I love... that isn't there with overdubs.

I'm recording onto a Tascam 388 with 8 tracks so I won't be doing stereo acoustic--I'll need the other tracks. However, I'm going to cut the vocal harmonies at the same time, in the same room, and I'm planning to position the harmony vocalist mic so that it gets a nice sounding bleed from the singer-guitar player.

[Patrick McAnulty]

Wow! a wealth of ideas here, thanks everybody. One poster asked why I was recording both (vocals and guit) at the same time. With the singer I'm working with, it would be a shame to separate the two. When tracked at the same time there is a natural push and pull between the two that I love... that isn't there with overdubs.

I'm recording onto a Tascam 388 with 8 tracks so I won't be doing stereo acoustic--I'll need the other tracks. However, I'm going to cut the vocal harmonies at the same time, in the same room, and I'm planning to position the harmony vocalist mic so that it gets a nice sounding bleed from the singer-guitar player.

Sounds sweet! Don't forget to post samples