Anybody A/B'd RMGi 911 vs. ATR for big rock drums?

[Justine_X]

Got a couple 1/2" reels of both because I was paranoid about the possibility of the RMG shedding on the spot. Seems to be fine (mostly ) but now I realize I can experiment and see which sounds better!

So wanted to see if anyone else has already tried this first. It will be mostly drum and bass guitar tracks, which will then be bounced onto a reel of the other brand for more tracking.

[@?,*???&?]

These tapes are for different print levels so the effect will not quite yield the same thing.

The BASF/EMTEC 911 was a stellar +3, +5 tape. I calibrate to +7 when I print to it and just let the signal peak around -.5 on the VU.

The RMGI 911 is a good tape. I have no idea why you think it would shed a stupid amount.

I just printed an album project to the RMGI 900 at +8 and was satisfied with the result.

The 911 has a MOL of +13. The 900 has a MOL of +16. The ATR is higher still.

Last project I printed to +10 on Ampex 499 was simply loud. The overall effect was that every instrument was just loud and wide. No subtlety or detail. Just loud. I would think you could get away with that kind of level on the ATR tape because it's still a good bit away from that kind of saturation due its high MOL.

Also, this could sound very 'modern' too.

[Justine_X]

The RMGI 911 is a good tape. I have no idea why you think it would shed a stupid amount.

I don't know how much a "stupid amount" is, but I'm not the only one who has noticed it shedding -- just google "RMGI" and you'll see! Someone also just posted on this board in "Gear Talk" about some 900 that is also shedding...

Thanks for writing about how hard I can hit the tape, though -- sounds like I can really slam both the 911 and the ATR, which I didn't know..

[jpmorris]

I can't comment on the ATR stuff, but RMGI has been known to have shedding issues. I had terrible results with the earliest stuff... on one occasion track 8 clogged with shit and threw the timecode off, crashing the sequencer.
Word is that the early batches weren't properly cured. I'm not sure whether baking it will fix it - either way, I've been making digital backups of the stuff on those tapes.

The last reel I had was pretty good, and I'm hoping the new one that's just arrived will be too. With luck it was a teething problem. Each time a new reel arrives I do a fake 1-minute overdub on each channel to see if it sheds.

[@?,*???&?]

The RMGI 911 is a good tape. I have no idea why you think it would shed a stupid amount.

I don't know how much a "stupid amount" is, but I'm not the only one who has noticed it shedding -- just google "RMGI" and you'll see! Someone also just posted on this board in "Gear Talk" about some 900 that is also shedding...

Thanks for writing about how hard I can hit the tape, though -- sounds like I can really slam both the 911 and the ATR, which I didn't know..

Don't confuse Maximum Output Level with operating level. 911 is a low print tape. ATR make a high print tape- like the 900 series tape.

[crow]

I've never used the rmg for anything but mixdown, but i am a huge lover of the atr 2" tape and the company. i'm actually not that huge, but i love it a lot. i can't be sure you'll like it better than the rmg for drums and bass, but i'm sure you won't be disappointed.

[crow]

ps i don't work for them or anything. i'd hate for folks to think they were lurkvertising or whatever it's called.

[Justine_X]

Okay... just A/B'd the tapes today and here's the off-the-cuff first impression for anyone who's curious:

The ATR was first with more of a round, cushiony sound. The 911 is brighter, with more top end, and most definitely prints hotter than the ATR. (We did leave the faders at the same levels set with the ATR...)

We're going with the ATR -- it should sound pretty nice for drums & bass. The 911 will be for guitars and percussion overdubs. Should be FUN! when everything is put together for the final mix.... hmm.

Final impression: we liked both brands. (But the ATR smells better.)

Interestingly, it was the ATR that left some oxide on the pinch roller, and even a few little shreds! What the hey!

[@?,*???&?]

The ATR was first with more of a round, cushiony sound. The 911 is brighter, with more top end, and most definitely prints hotter than the ATR. (We did leave the faders at the same levels set with the ATR...)

Final impression: we liked both brands. (But the ATR smells better.)

The ATR tape has a higher MOL, close to +20. I don't know what you mean when you say the 911 prints hotter. It only has an MOL of +13. The 900 is the high level print formulation from RMGI which is close to +16.

As for the brighter thing, that's a function of overbias.

At what speed were you running these?

At what operating level were you running?

And what amount of overbias did you apply to each formulation. The tape machine should have been re-aligned (record and overbias) for each tape formulation. Did you do that?

More information would be helpful.

Thanks.

As for the smell- yes, RMGI- like the old BASF/EMTEC stuff smells like rust!! Scotch 250 always smelled like crayons. Ampex 456 had a sweet smell. They are all different.

[Justine_X]

And what amount of overbias did you apply to each formulation. The tape machine should have been re-aligned (record and overbias) for each tape formulation. Did you do that?

Ah, that is the $1,000,000 question.

I forgot to mention that I just had the machine recalibrated for 456 @ 15 ips, so whatever tape I'm using (like the ATR) is going off of that.

911 is pretty close to 456 so I thought that would be the main drum & bass reel -- but the ATR sounding good was a happy surprise.

I haven't taught myself to align/bias my machine yet and don't really have the patience until this stuff is done, so I gotta work with what I have right now...

[@?,*???&?]

And what amount of overbias did you apply to each formulation. The tape machine should have been re-aligned (record and overbias) for each tape formulation. Did you do that?

Ah, that is the $1,000,000 question.

I forgot to mention that I just had the machine recalibrated for 456 @ 15 ips, so whatever tape I'm using (like the ATR) is going off of that.

911 is pretty close to 456 so I thought that would be the main drum & bass reel -- but the ATR sounding good was a happy surprise.

I haven't taught myself to align/bias my machine yet and don't really have the patience until this stuff is done, so I gotta work with what I have right now...

OMG!!!

Then let me say right now that you have no idea how this tape performs and the information you just posted is useless.

You can't get the best results with these two formulations leaving a machine calibrated for a lowprint formula with a completely different bias.

The overbias could describe why you think the 911 is a hotter tape, but you're overall alignment is going to be about 8 dB lower than what you can actually put on the ATR tape. The bias will change that too.

This is NOT a random event. They do not make this tape for a RANDOM event record alignment.

It is the case that the old BASF/EMTEC formulations used the same overbias setting so that you could use the same alignment/calibration when going from 468 to 911. But knowing that alignments need to be re-done based upon batches of the same formulation ideally, you can't simply throw up a reel of tape and say it sounds "x".

Get to work and report back when you have the machine properly calibrated. There are a bunch of threads on doing that here and TapeOp published an alignment article back in 2000 (or just before).

Off you go then.

btw, if I were the client on this and knew this information you just provided, I'd have you very quickly not engineering my recording anymore. Keep this quiet until the end of the session and then have a major re-think about what you need to do to correct this. There are some great texts on this stuff. Don't have the patience = don't care, I only do this so people can like me. Get over that.

[Justine_X]

btw, if I were the client on this and knew this information you just provided, I'd have you very quickly not engineering my recording anymore. Keep this quiet until the end of the session and then have a major re-think about what you need to do to correct this.

Yes, I agree....! Thee kuztomer must never know!!

Haha, ACTUALLY... there is no customer involved here. This is just a couple amateur guys messing around with an 8-track. To give you an idea of the level of professionalism here: I'm using SM57's for overheads! (And hey, they sound awesome to me!)

I should have re-worded the title as "ATR vs. 911 on a deck calibrated for 456"! Would've avoided a lot of confusion, sorry.

Don't have the patience = don't care, I only do this so people can like me. Get over that.

Um, at this point in your message you are making assumptions and taking on a patronizing tone. It's kind of a bummer, man.

You couldn't be further from the truth! We're just having fun here.

To make an analogy, we are like a few kids in a garage building a homemade car, and suddenly an automotive engineer walks through the door: "You ignorant fools! This operation is a mess! You don't really care about making cars! You just want people to like you!"

Geez.....

But don't get me wrong here -- I appreciate your input and taking the time to share your knowledge.

Off I go then! (We are actually recording in a garage...)

[@?,*???&?]

Um, at this point in your message you are making assumptions and taking on a patronizing tone. It's kind of a bummer, man

Do you want to do the best work possible?

[rwc]

everytime I see jeff go "OMG" I know the thread will be worth reading

[Justine_X]

everytime I see jeff go "OMG" I know the thread will be worth reading

I think I get his drift now. It's all about tough love this week here on the TOMB. You know, I really wouldn't mind interning for you, Mr. Jeff -- you sound like a crusty old coot!

Ok -- it has been established that I am breaking the rules by using ATR tape on a deck calibrated for 456.

So... what exactly *are* the negative factors that I am incurring? It is going to be noisier? Bassier? More distorted? How bad can it be?

I can only tell you what I hear from my end, recording drum tracks today: the bass drum sounds clear and punchy, snare is big and full, cymbals don't sound washy. I set the levels with my ears by monitoring off the repro head and not looking at the VU meters. Sounds pretty good...

As for the RMGI 911, I'm even less worried about that... since it's a +6 tape like 456, isn't there an even lower need to rebias when we start to use those reels?