Recording Level Experts Needed

[MASSIVE Mastering]

And I think you're missing the point of the lower signal levels. As MSE indicated, it's primarily to avoid overloading the mix bus (your final 2-track output).

No, no, no --- Not even close. The point to NORMAL (let's get that out of the way - It's not "lower" - It's "normal") recording levels is to not overdrive the input chain. It has nothing at all to do with the mix buss. The fact that it give you a little more (though rarely ever enough) headroom at the mix buss is is simply how the system is designed. Although that design works much better with converters calibrated to -20 (and I "pretend" they're at -24, as I'm a complete whore for headroom). You get one chance to digitize an analog signal. Once it's captured, all the rules change and there's no going back.

If your converters are calibrated to -14dBFS (seems a little high, but I suppose there are still some out there that haven't read the memo), and your front end is spec'd to line level (as basically every single piece of gear in the world is), then a "normal" level would be -14dBFS.

Point: Some (SOME) pieces of gear out there have a good a mount of usable headroom and sound fine above line level.

Counterpoint: I've never actually heard a piece that sounds *better* above line level - I should correct that -- It's very rare, but it does happen, that certain pieces change in "flavor" -- Amek, Neve, API make a few a pieces like that - But again, you'd need your converters way down at -24 or -20 to take advantage of it - and the "flavor" is a personal preference to some - Nothing illegal, but worth noting.

Counter-counterpoint: I've heard soooo many pieces that sound better below line level...

Back to the point on compression on the input chain -- Ideally, you'd want to set your preamp level first and allow the compressor to reduce the gain without adding it back. Digital gain will be cleaner - and you'll not fall into the trap of adding additional gain at the preamp which will take it out of it's nominal "sweet spot."

NORMAL levels - Lower noise, lower distortion, better signal-to-noise ratio, better focus, higher clarity, etc., etc., etc., yada, yada, on and on. There is nothing "normal" about recording levels up short of clipping. No matter what the manual or the marketing company might say.

[cjac9]

I'm mixing an album right now and recorded in Pro Tools at 24-bits and left plenty of room on individual tracks. Now I'm mixing and if I leave the Pro Tools Master Fader at 0db then I end up with pretty quiet mixes.

Should I just bump the master fader up so my peaks are around 3-4db for the mastering engineer or is there no point? I figure he could just turn the track up and it would do the same.

[JGriffin]

he could just turn the track up and it would do the same.

That's the one.

[cjac9]

so maybe I want to go turn each indivdual track up using the ALL group so that the peaks going through the master fader are in the 3-4db range. How do I do this when I'm using automation? Is this smart to do?

[BusyBoxSt7]

as dwlb said, for mastering, there's no point in giving them a louder mix.... If you want to turn up everything for your own purposes, do it with a plugin on the master channel (a clean one of course unless you want to add some sort of color).

The reason I suggest this instead of turning all of your individual tracks up is that some people argue (at least in pro tools) that you can get clipping in the bussing (as individual channels are transferred to auxes or to the master) and of course that shows no red light anywhere. It's a controversial topic and it's been hashed out elsewhere, I do not mean to open that can of worms and won't respond to it as I'm no expert on it.

Peace.

[farview]

I'm mixing an album right now and recorded in Pro Tools at 24-bits and left plenty of room on individual tracks. Now I'm mixing and if I leave the Pro Tools Master Fader at 0db then I end up with pretty quiet mixes.

Right. That's because you are mixing. Mastering is when you deal with the final level. That's a separate process.

Once you mix a few songs and try to put them on a CD, you will notice that they are at different volumes, even if the peak levels are the same. That is one of the things that are taken care of in mastering.

Don't worry about the volume of the mix.

[cjac9]

Okay, I just feel like I'm probably throwing away bits on every track if I'm mixing with the faders down but I guess distortion on the auxes is more of a problem. I understand it's going to be quieter than the master I just didn't know if there was such thing as too quiet.

[farview]

If the level peaks at -6dbfs once in the song, you have use all the bits. If it peaks at -12dbfs, you have used 23 of the 24 bits available.

You would have to have peaks of -48dbfs in order to only use 16 bits (like the CD that the music will eventually be listened to on). A bit represents about 6db of dynamic range, so you really have to be recording rediculously low before it becomes a problem.

This bit hoarding thing is a hold-over from when we only had 16 bits to deal with and a higher noise floor. With 24 bit, there is

[MoreSpaceEcho]

I just didn't know if there was such thing as too quiet.

basically no. what farview said. almost every record i get in for mastering peaks between -3 and 0dbfs and all of them get turned down before i start doing anything.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

I just didn't know if there was such thing as too quiet.

If your levels are below -30dB(FS)RMS and you're peaking below -10dBFS, then - if you really, really want to - you can tap it up a notch. But you don't need to.

"Too quiet" -- One time (in the last 8 or 9 years if I recall) did I get a project in that was "too quiet" -- Something went frotzy in the engineer's software when he was rendering and the files came in peaking at around -50dBFS with RMS levels of around -70dB(FS)RMS. Still a healthy 20dB crest.

It actually took us a minute to figure out that there was actually audio there.

Right away, we decided that he'd go back and render the files again, of course.

But "just for fun" we thought it'd be a fun experiment. So after adding around 50dB of gain to all the tracks, I ran through and "ITB'd" a few of them to give him something to listen to on the long (5-hour -- This is where FTP comes in handy) drive back to the studio.

And (not surprising at all) it sounded fine. The files were completely workable. The decision to render them again was really on principle.

[Nick Sevilla]

I'd worry more about not getting peak clipping, than haveing everything at -14RMS.

Make it sound good, then check your clipping. Too loud, turn down the LAST gain knob before the converter.

Too soft? Again, turn up the LAST gain knob before the converter.

Always use the LAST KNOB before the converter, to set your recording levels.

Cheers

[the finger genius]

Okay, I just feel like I'm probably throwing away bits on every track if I'm mixing with the faders down but I guess distortion on the auxes is more of a problem. I understand it's going to be quieter than the master I just didn't know if there was such thing as too quiet.

Unless you're going through another conversion phase (D/A then A/D) for some reason, you're not "throwing away" anything when mixing, the conversion has already happened. And even if you were, as many have pointed out, that would likely affect your sound much less than operating at a level your gear wasn't designed for.

[farview]

Make it sound good, then check your clipping. Too loud, turn down the LAST gain knob before the converter.

Too soft? Again, turn up the LAST gain knob before the converter.

Always use the LAST KNOB before the converter, to set your recording levels.

Cheers

Why would you not pay attention to the gain staging until the converters? That makes no sense.

[chris harris]

Make it sound good, then check your clipping. Too loud, turn down the LAST gain knob before the converter.

Too soft? Again, turn up the LAST gain knob before the converter.

Always use the LAST KNOB before the converter, to set your recording levels.

Cheers

Why would you not pay attention to the gain staging until the converters? That makes no sense.

I don't think that's the point that he was making.

Assuming proper gain staging elsewhere, make your final tweaks as close to the converter as possible, so as not to fuck up gain staging elsewhere in the chain.

[farview]

Make it sound good, then check your clipping. Too loud, turn down the LAST gain knob before the converter.

Too soft? Again, turn up the LAST gain knob before the converter.

Always use the LAST KNOB before the converter, to set your recording levels.

Cheers

Why would you not pay attention to the gain staging until the converters? That makes no sense.

I don't think that's the point that he was making.

Assuming proper gain staging elsewhere, make your final tweaks as close to the converter as possible, so as not to fuck up gain staging elsewhere in the chain.

If your gain staging is correct all the way through the chain, you won't need to tweak it.