Recording Levels

skinsincyn · Post by **skinsincyn** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:19 am

toaster3000 wrote:great idea.

in addition to that, maybe we should all submit the '0dbvu' dbfs values for the gear we use.

i'll go first:

RME Multiface II in '+19' mode: 0vu (at +4 operating levels) = -15dbfs

cheers,
John

Thank God I'm not alone on this. I've been setting my RME fireface the same way: -15dbfs when running in +19 mode, and praying that that was right. Whew!

dennisjames · Post by **dennisjames** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:27 am

I figured that out after I got home and tried.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt". A. Lincoln

farview · Post by **farview** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:44 am

skinsincyn wrote:
toaster3000 wrote:great idea.

in addition to that, maybe we should all submit the '0dbvu' dbfs values for the gear we use.

i'll go first:

RME Multiface II in '+19' mode: 0vu (at +4 operating levels) = -15dbfs

cheers,
John
Thank God I'm not alone on this. I've been setting my RME fireface the same way: -15dbfs when running in +19 mode, and praying that that was right. Whew!

A few db in either direction is not the end of the world. Line level is a target, like in horse-shoes. Close does count.

BSigmeth · Post by **BSigmeth** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:47 pm

I didn't want to read this entire thread, but I'm glad I did -- because it reinforced an opinion I had come to without reading up on the subject. After 9 years of analog, I ventured upon my first Pro Tools session with an 8 channel Apogee converter. I was told to use the soft-limit option and get the levels as high as I could ... so, I did. Even though the record I made was one of the best records I have recorded (musically), it came out sounding thin, EQ smeary, and mildly distorted across the board (this was in 2002). I have since dubbed it my "learning digital" record. Since then, I began recording my tracks the way I always did with analog - watching the VU meters on the Neve desk for input value, and everything changed in the digital world for me. I'm now seven years happy and I get it. It's not that hard to figure out, but I did have to suffer the initial introduction to digital in a way that still haunts me.

Great thread; it shows that the transition from analog to digital has not been easy in terms of engineering/tones/resolution ... a lot of us thought it was just a noise floor improvement and didn't initially pay attention to the finer engineering aspects. I'm glad I figured it out without too much heartbreak!

Cheers to all ...

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Thu May 15, 2008 11:24 am

woah. it took me 2 days to read through this .. phew. it confirmed some feelings i had as well.

like many i started recording with ADATs so it's been hard to unlearn the idea of going for MAX levels. i have consciously worked on it but i have further (quieter) to go still.

and i have fought a lot with my mixes wondering why there wasn't the same sense of space - open soundstage - that i hear on albums i love. i was ready to drop a bunch of cash on new converters but i think i'll spend the summer backing off the levels more and see where that gets me first. (i am not suggesting i don't have anything to learn about engineering or mixing - but i think this is a big part of the equation too)

here's a question: if things are tracked approprately - how loud do you print your mixes to continue to preserve the headroom?

on a interesting side note:
i was chatting with a friend about RADAR the other day and one of my theories on why the converters sound so great is that the metering on the unit is set to be lower than you think. i did a project where we tracked beds to radar and then exported the wavs to work on further at my space in nuendo. the files looked WAY quieter in nuendo than i thought i had tracked them at (tracking levels generally in the louder end of things with peaks just below 0 on the radar meters.). my theory being that they make 0 on the meters be actually closer to -6 or something which forces the operator to keep his levels more conservative and therefore getting a larger, more open sound in the end - leading everyone to believe in the superiority of the converters...

MASSIVE Mastering · Post by **MASSIVE Mastering** » Thu May 15, 2008 9:35 pm

here's a question: if things are tracked approprately - how loud do you print your mixes to continue to preserve the headroom?

If you're ITB, just don't clip. Personally, I try to have at least 3-6dB on top - Sometimes more, sometimes a lot more (nothing wrong with having 20dB if that's where the mix winds up).

The damage is done tracking too hot -- After that, staying reasonable is usually enough. And it's nice to not have to turn every single track down 10dB to stop all the clipping on the 2-buss...

Never noticed the meters on the RADAR... Interesting thought though. Haven't messed with them enough to even remember how they're calibrated...

farview · Post by **farview** » Fri May 16, 2008 7:59 am

joninc wrote:
here's a question: if things are tracked approprately - how loud do you print your mixes to continue to preserve the headroom?

Until you start getting upwards of 40 tracks, it's sort of a non-issue. You will probably find that your mixes just happen to average -18dbfs anyway.

joelkriske · Post by **joelkriske** » Fri May 23, 2008 11:15 pm

this is an awesome thread!

<--- goes and quietly weeps in the corner for the disservice he's done to many of his songs

MASSIVE Mastering · Post by **MASSIVE Mastering** » Mon May 26, 2008 7:44 am

joelkriske wrote:this is an awesome thread!

And yours is an awesome avatar...

joelkriske · Post by **joelkriske** » Tue May 27, 2008 12:08 am

thanks massive, i feel just a little better now.

C_R_J · Post by **C_R_J** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:52 pm

Jon~T · Post by **Jon~T** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:57 pm

Bumping this epic thread because it needs to be seen.

Great stuff.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread, but this you may find interesting/useful.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn ... /index.htm

edit-
looking through the Profire 2626 manual for the specs on what the converters are calibrated to I found this.

Setting Gain Levels
To set gain levels for an analog input, begin by turning
the Gain Adjustment Knob (4) for that channel fully
counter-clockwise. While the sound source is playing at
its loudest levels, slowly turn the knob clockwise until the
red clip indicator (3) begins to illuminate. Then, turn the
knob counter-clockwise until the clip indicator no longer
illuminates. At this point, you should be ready to record with
the optimum gain setting.
Please keep in mind that the red LED indicates that your
input is clipping (distorting) digitally. This is not the same
kind of analog-style distortion found on guitar amplifers and
stomp boxes. Digital distortion is generally considered to be
harsh and unmusical and it is recommended that you use
these LED meters to avoid this type of clipping.

east3rdst · Post by **east3rdst** » Mon May 04, 2009 11:50 pm

joninc wrote: on a interesting side note:
i was chatting with a friend about RADAR the other day and one of my theories on why the converters sound so great is that the metering on the unit is set to be lower than you think. i did a project where we tracked beds to radar and then exported the wavs to work on further at my space in nuendo. the files looked WAY quieter in nuendo than i thought i had tracked them at (tracking levels generally in the louder end of things with peaks just below 0 on the radar meters.). my theory being that they make 0 on the meters be actually closer to -6 or something which forces the operator to keep his levels more conservative and therefore getting a larger, more open sound in the end - leading everyone to believe in the superiority of the converters...

Do you mean the wave form looked smaller, or that it came up on the meter lower?

farview · Post by **farview** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:12 am

Jon~T wrote:Bumping this epic thread because it needs to be seen.

Great stuff.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread, but this you may find interesting/useful.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn ... /index.htm

edit-
looking through the Profire 2626 manual for the specs on what the converters are calibrated to I found this.
Setting Gain Levels
To set gain levels for an analog input, begin by turning
the Gain Adjustment Knob (4) for that channel fully
counter-clockwise. While the sound source is playing at
its loudest levels, slowly turn the knob clockwise until the
red clip indicator (3) begins to illuminate. Then, turn the
knob counter-clockwise until the clip indicator no longer
illuminates. At this point, you should be ready to record with
the optimum gain setting.
Please keep in mind that the red LED indicates that your
input is clipping (distorting) digitally. This is not the same
kind of analog-style distortion found on guitar amplifers and
stomp boxes. Digital distortion is generally considered to be
harsh and unmusical and it is recommended that you use
these LED meters to avoid this type of clipping.

They have you do that because the unit wasn't designed with a useful meter of any kind. It's also much easier to explain than RMS vs. peak levels, averaging at -18dbfs, the difference between dbfs, dbVU, dbv and dbu, etc...

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:41 am

Jon~T wrote:Bumping this epic thread because it needs to be seen.

Great stuff.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread, but this you may find interesting/useful.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn ... /index.htm

Yup, This one is cool, lets you pick a value that matches your D/A.

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