PTLE Plug-in caused delay on master fader?

[UnlikeKurt]

Hey all I've never used any plugins on my master fader before.
I just put massey's L2007 on there to make a dirty reference disc for someone
What do you do to deal with plug-in caused delay on the master fader?

Here's what I found to happen:
I bounced a simple mono track down just to see if the delay would be apparent in the summed track.
I imported the bounced track and as I assumed, the first 64 samples are flat at 0 and the last 64 samples of the intended bounce are cutoff.

I'm sort of at a mathematical loss to figure out how to compensate for delay on the master fader? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
James

[@?,*???&?]

Infuriating, isn't it?

Just imagine those fader rides that you just automated that you thought were in-time with the peaks you heard in the program material! If what you heard was late, then so were your rides unless you're automating on the edit window!

Actually, something like the Massey isn't that bad. Waves plugins get pretty late, but nowhere near as bad as the UAD stuff. 3 plugins on the buss with that could easily give you an 18,000 sample shift of program!

Here's what you should do:

Bounce the mixes with no buss compression down to a stereo, interleaved file on to the desk top. Then, create a new session in which to master it and import the track. Then trim the front of the file and re-align the tracks in the edit window for the number of samples they would be late, insert the plugin and go. It's a pita (pain in the ass), but it is an LE system reality.

Another infuriating thing about the Pro Tools master fader is that it is PRE plugins. The lower the signal of the master fader, the lower the signal feeding the stereo buss inserts. It would be nice to have a 'pre/post' function button on the master fader- sort of like how you can change the insert points on the SSL at the patchbay. The only workaround for this is actually buss your entire mix to a stereo aux return and then have that feed a stereo fader. Effectively giving you a pre-fader as well as a post-fader.

[UnlikeKurt]

thanks for the info.
And yes, it is truly infuriating and I don't see how people are using buss compression on their sessions if there is this delay on the master fader!?

When you say to bounce the mix down without any buss compression and then import it into a new session and trim the front and realign the tracks. Shouldn't there be no need to trim the front? if you bounced the mix down and had no plugins on the master fader there should not have been any delay, no?

And then what you are suggesting to do is put the fx that would be on your master right on the newly created stereo track and then bounce that (I imagine you could also use audiosuite version and just process the new track without a need to bounce it down?) through a master fader without any fx on it?

Thanks again
James

[RodC]

And yes, it is truly infuriating and I don't see how people are using buss compression on their sessions if there is this delay on the master fader!?

I don't see how anyone uses PTLE or PT M-Powered with this type of frustration. Who in their right mind would want to worry about something that the DAW should take care of for you??

Everytime I see a new release the first thing I ask is - Does it have ADC yet?

Oh well ppl still buy from the "industry standard" company.

[@?,*???&?]

When you say to bounce the mix down without any buss compression and then import it into a new session and trim the front and realign the tracks. Shouldn't there be no need to trim the front? if you bounced the mix down and had no plugins on the master fader there should not have been any delay, no?

And then what you are suggesting to do is put the fx that would be on your master right on the newly created stereo track and then bounce that (I imagine you could also use audiosuite version and just process the new track without a need to bounce it down?) through a master fader without any fx on it?

Thanks again
James

Yes. True. Your choice where you integrate the plugins- either on the new stereo mix in the new session OR on the stereo buss of the new session.

[UnlikeKurt]

I am now super confused about this.
I cannot figure out a way at all to use plugins that induce delay on a stereo track or buss without the printed track having blank space at its beginning.

If I nudge the tracks forward by the amount of plugin delay I end up with twice the blank space.

If I nudge the tracks backward I end up with the blank space and

Do you have to simply deal with it by bouncing your track with blank space at the end equivalent to the delay induced by the plugin? And then trim the blank space from the start of the new track and either re-bounce it or consolidate it?

If anybody can help guide me to what i'm failing to see it would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks

[digitaldrummer]

as was said before - look at the number of samples the plugin has and after you bounce "manually compensate". another way i have cheated when trading files with others is to use a bit of a click track (or a couple snare hits or something) at the front of the file - then after you bounce it, you can line it up when zooming in. of course, depending on what you have on the master, this mangle the "reference" clicks so much that they don't match anymore. you can automate a "bypass" on those clicks - the delay will still be there, but the effects will not be applied.

the other option is to use "audiosuite" - this only works if you are applying to a single track though. as far as i can tell, that is not subject to the delay of the plugin -- or its at least compensated for automatically -- hey maybe digi goofed and forgot to take that out too?

btw, I'm not sure all other DAWs compensate for delay on the master output either - I've received some tracks that were obviously delayed from the original reference and I can only believe that was caused by a plugin. so sometimes you have to zoom in or jsut trust your ears

[knapus]

I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but mellowmuse makes a delay compensation plug that looks promising (can't remember which issue of Tape Op it was reviewed in).

http://www.mellowmuse.com/ATA.html

[knapus]

I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but mellowmuse makes a delay compensation plug that looks promising (can't remember which issue of Tape Op it was reviewed in).

http://www.mellowmuse.com/ATA.html

[rydberg]

Alternately, you could just select the time you want to bounce to disk, then add an additional second or two to the front and back. It's a reference disk, right? Sounds a lot easier than trying to jump thru hoops and do unnecessary math.

[ott0bot]

I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but mellowmuse makes a delay compensation plug that looks promising (can't remember which issue of Tape Op it was reviewed in).

http://www.mellowmuse.com/ATA.html

I wondered the same thing....

Here's a thread with some opinions, but no definative answer on delay compensation when using sends and using outboard gear in LE.

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... highlight=