Learning to let go.

[Nick Sevilla]

I wonder if there's some way to give them a before/after. Like, this is the turd you gave me, now here's how much I polished it up. People need to know the limits of where studio chicanery can get them.

I just had a thought. With bands like that, probably the best product you could give them as they leave the studio would be a quick write up of what they could do to have a better outcome next time. Like give them a little print out with what you think their audible strengths and weaknesses are. Get a new snare, a new kick head, set-up guitar and bass rig. Or practice your transitions into your bridges, or whatever it is. It doesn't sound like you do pre-production, but you could do post, like you're basically trying to do come mix time.

Does that make any sense? It might make you feel a little better about the cd you're sending them out with. I could see that totally backfiring too though. Sounds like these are younger bands to me (maybe I'm way off on that.) But when I was young, I don't think I was arrogant at all, but I didn't really incorporate criticism into my workflow very well. It's taken me years sometimes to realize what people meant by some fairly simple tips they were giving me, and some of it I still don't understand. But I think if you can find the least douchey way of doing it most people will realize you were at least trying to be helpful even if it wasn't.

Ugh. I'm a ramblin' man.

Hi Snarl,

I used to think like this... but unfortunately in this day and age a lot of people love living in complete denial of their shortcomings. So pointing out someone elses' shortcomings usually ends up in you losing the gig.
This is one of those businesses in which the saying "The Truth Will Set You Free" does not apply.

Now I try to understand the artist, and help them as much as I can, but keeping things as positive as possible. Mostly now I get comments such as "you did the best you can with what we gave you" and the like.

Cheers

[Brett Siler]

Recognize the turd, and make it a smelly BEAST of a turd.quote]

Quote of the day!

[TapeOpLarry]

Bringing up areas of improvement must be done carefully for sure. I work it in if the client brings it up and we've dealt with the outcome of these issues. But I'd never write up a list and hand it to someone. They'd never come back in my opinion.

One of the main issues we deal with is getting better at our craft. I used to be mad at clients and think it was all their fault when things were crummy. Now I feel I can find a way to make anything work somehow. Skills.

Every time you mix something you recorded and are having trouble you should in turn make changes to your recording methods so that the next mix is easier. Believe me, my tracking is so much more precise than 15 years back, and mixing is a creative, pleasant stage and not a battle to just make it semi-listenable. You have to make yourself get better, and eventually you will charge more because of this and your clients will be better too.

[xpulsar]

Bringing up areas of improvement must be done carefully for sure. I work it in if the client brings it up and we've dealt with the outcome of these issues. But I'd never write up a list and hand it to someone. They'd never come back in my opinion.

One of the main issues we deal with is getting better at our craft. I used to be mad at clients and think it was all their fault when things were crummy. Now I feel I can find a way to make anything work somehow. Skills.

Every time you mix something you recorded and are having trouble you should in turn make changes to your recording methods so that the next mix is easier. Believe me, my tracking is so much more precise than 15 years back, and mixing is a creative, pleasant stage and not a battle to just make it semi-listenable. You have to make yourself get better, and eventually you will charge more because of this and your clients will be better too.

I agree with Larry on this one. It rarely ever works pointing out musicians short comings,egos are in play. You'll get a bad name really quick.
I always try and focus on the positive things about the music and or bands. It really does come to developing your skills more.
One suggestion that you may try out is to spend a little time with the bands in pre-production in their rehearsal space. This will help you to know who the strong players are,the overall sound of the band, what equipment they plan on using for the recording,and give you a head start on what direction you need to take in recording. This will also help you with figuring out the people in the band you will need to put extra attention in easing their ego through the process. I find it is usually the not so good players in the band who tend to get stressed out more in the studio,as their playing is under a microscope.
Going to one rehearsal and not charging will put you ahead of the curve when they show up to the studio. You will have already figured out if the drummer is a cymbal smasher,if the bass player has to use his SVT, and or the guitar player insists on his 4x12 100watt amp. Plus since the band will have already met and played in front of you they will be more comfortable taking in suggestions such as not using the SVT and the 4x12. I also agree with having some better choices of gear and instruments for them to use when they get to the studio will make mixing a whole lot more enjoyable.



-Collin

[lefthanddoes]

Preproduction is a great thing. If you go to a band's rehearsal and the drummer sounds like shit, and the rest of the band is visibly frustrated, it's obviously much better to discuss with them the fact that maybe they're not ready to go in the studio, than to have them sit around listning to a cuople hours worth of work and have it sound bad and expensive.

Im' really feeling you, though, on the thing about letting go. Something that's changed in my recording habits is that I'm way less likely to do something if somebody didn't ask me to do it. Otherwise I"ll sit there for hours doing really good EQ jobs and compression and shit and they'll listen back and be like "yeah, sounds pretty good" and in my head i'll say "FUCK YOU IT SOUNDS AWESOME!" It's important to focus your energy on what the client wants, and find out if there's a conflict of interest at the earliest stage of the process possible.

If the client is sitting there listening to the mix and saying it sounds awesome, and you don't think it sounds that great, well that rarely ever happens to me, but instead of trying to make it work for you, you're better off saving your energy for something where you're more on the same page with the artist, and the more clients you get, the more selective you can be, so that will happen more often.

[TapeOpLarry]

"If the client is sitting there listening to the mix and saying it sounds awesome, and you don't think it sounds that great"

Then I tell them it can be better and get to work on it.

[lefthanddoes]

yeah I'm saying that sometimes it can be a good idea and a valuable skill to be able to just let go of it and not do that. obviously not everything applies the same way every time.

[TapeOpLarry]

Ain't that the truth. It's NEVER the same day after day. That's where we learn...

[joelpatterson]

As I ponder, weak and weary, the whole miasma of issues this topic conjures....

I keep coming back to the idea that your job, Trods, is to craft the best possible version of what these people really sound like, rather than taking what they sound like and trying to create some fraudulized concoction based on what they sound like. Eh?

Or... is it?

[joninc]

I keep coming back to the idea that your job, Trods, is to craft the best possible version of what these people really sound like, rather than taking what they sound like and trying to create some fraudulized concoction based on what they sound like. Eh?

Or... is it?

this is an interesting point - and gets to the heart of the type of work you do. to me this approach is more "documentarian" a la steve albini and is totally a valid process/goal, if that's what the artist is wanting. this sometimes goes hand in hand with specific genres too.

but for me - i am much more interested in "creating compelling recordings" than i am in representing reality. you may call that fraudulent but it certainly feels authentic to me. the end results have much more power and emotion to them then a live recording "to my ears". i am talking dave fridmann, tchad blake...

that's not to say i want to thwart anyones strengths or make people into something they aren't but i never have had the goal to just make the recording sound like the band live. a recording can be it's own distinctive work - not just a document of a live show.

IMO live and studio are so different. live you can do the last chorus 12 times and break it down and double the guitar solo - on an album that is often waaaay overkill and needs to be trimmed back. you no longer have the visual element, the lights, the physical element of being in the room with all the other people and the band rocking - you have to achieve all your impact through the music alone. 1 dimension. sounds need to be interesting and arrangements need to be well crafted to keep your attention following along. you need contrasts and surprises. you need to amplify dynamics to extremes to make the point.

i guess it maybe is more about - are they hiring you for your production input or just engineering. if it's just engineering then you are working to help them realize their vision, and when say they are happy - you are done. success. there might be times when you say, give me a little more time and it will sound even better - but, if they disagree and liked an earlier, rawer mix better - they are right, they are the boss.

if you are producing or co-producing then you are more in control the bar saying "that was ok, but i think you can do it better, let's try it again."

on my projects (i produce and engineer pretty 95% of the stuff i do) then i often mix to where i think things sound quite good and get consensus from the artist. at that point, it's signed off and completed. if i sit with it for a bit and feel it could be better then i may opt to put in a few more hours of my own time and then later present it to the artist with a brief explanation of what i was attempting to improve. generally they always agree and now i am even happier with the work and they get the bonus of a few hours on the house. winwin.

all that long windedness/tangent to say - yeah, it's hard to let go of stuff that doesn't turn out as awesome as you'd like when your name is attached. do your best to pinpoint the issue - if it's drum sounds, you gotta find a way to have access to better kits (owning/borrowing/bartering/renting). if it's time - start budgeting more time for projects. you can't be afraid of saying "let's pick 3 songs and do a really good job instead of trying for 5 in 2 days" - it's just being honest about what is realistically achievable.

if they can't afford prepro - go to 1 rehearsal anyways, it makes such a big difference and the band will appreciate it.

DO YOUR BEST, LEAVE THE REST, TRY NOT TO STRESS [/i]

[joelpatterson]

Of course I dig all you say-- and I raise that "dig" to a "whole-hearted endorsement," I mean in the videos I've done for people more often than not I've had to secretly overdub parts to "bring out the latent goodness" that existed in actuality in some kind of raw form but wasn't quite fully risen...

And this kind of fraud troubles me nary one whit-- all of recording is a fraud! That's my mantra and I'm sticking to it. The only thing that survives all our endless thrashing about is the final product, so it's best to gear everything, all approaches and rationales, to insuring it's a good as it possibly can be.

I'd say there does need to be some kind of God-like benevolence to all this, however-- this is all predicated on working with people who floor you and you want to see exalted. Sounded to me like Troddy was on the borderline of being semi-almost-disgusted with the band before him and really wanted to transform them into other people-- which is problematic and sort of futile, in a way.