analog hardware drum triggering / sample-replacing

[telepathy]

OK, so I've been trying to scope out the possibilities of hardware-based sample triggering from tape. no DAW involved.

I definitely don't need to sync a drum machine or sequencer to tape, I just need to be able to use tape tracks to trigger drum samples. reinforcing kicks with 808 kicks, snares with handclap samples, etc.

Alesis DM5? that thing seems geared toward using live on-the-drum contact triggers instead of audio tracks.

something that would take an audio signal and generate a control voltage? there're a few different CV-to-MIDI options out there. would that introduce too much latency?

any current hardware samplers out there that have audio/trigger inputs? I couldn't find any. Akai apparently made something called the ME35T to handle audio-to-MIDI control but I don't know if that was meant for proprietary use with their samplers of that era.

any advice or other suggestions would be much appreciated. (anything that allows me to avoid MIDI would be *especially* wonderful but I don't know how realistic that is......)

[ashcat_lt]

The trigger inputs on the DM5 are audio inputs and should work just fine. You might need to adjust levels, maybe eq and/or compress/gate the signals depending on bleed and such. The brain itself has some parameters to help with bleed and crosstalk issues as well, so it might not need anything else.

[evilaudio]

Oh yeah, something like those Alesis DM4, DM5, DMPro, etc... would be pretty much just what you need! I would personally recommend looking into the Ddrum3 or Ddrum4 percussion sound modules. They have really good sounds!! I use a Ddrum4 still.

Another more "modern" option would be another Alesis product called the TriggerIO... http://www.alesis.com/triggerio

I've always wondered though, what they did in the old days... especially old metal records where the drums are obviously some sort of synthetic-based sound, but obviously played with human feel... they sound so much more realistic, but SO much more powerful than (what we would do now such as) simply using something like drumagog or SStrigger....

[telepathy]

yeah, what's the quality of samples in those Alesis modules? are they versatile or do they scream "Peter Gabriel record?"

a big plus would be to be able to trigger a sampler so I could make my own synthetic drum sounds.

would also love to hear from guys who did this sort of thing back in the day. I've read a bunch about people using the AMS delays to sample replace but I'm a little unclear on the manner in which this was done, exactly.

[ashcat_lt]

There have been ways to trigger this kind of thing for almost as long as there's been metal, if you try hard enough. I think some of that stuff though might have been done by either cutting together chunks of tape or by flying in the sounds by hand. I think it requires a lot of coke to get it right!

BTW - To beef up a kick (or other drum) with an 808 type sound you can use that old keyed gate trick. Run a low frequency sine wave through the gate, mult the kick into the key or sidechain input, adjust threshold and release and overall mix to taste.

Edit- Just saw your newer post. You may ninjas this edit, too. The Alesis drums are not all that bad. Don't know if you'd want to rely on them for the bulk of the sound, but for filling out or adding a little something it might work for you. They all send MIDI out, though, so you can trigger any damn thing you want.

[Gregg Juke]

This might be helpful to you, for full-on sync or triggering:

http://www.redsound.com/products/SoundBITEmicro

GJ

[The Scum]

this sort of thing back in the day

Then go track down a Wendel, Jr.

Or maybe a Cabonga.

You've heard more records that were replaced or supplemented with a D4 than you want to know about.

To beef up a kick (or other drum) with an 808 type sound you can use that old keyed gate trick. Run a low frequency sine wave through the gate, mult the kick into the key or sidechain input, adjust threshold and release and overall mix to taste.

Though that misses one significant part of the 808 - the 808 waveform always restarts when it triggered. Gating a sine can introduce clicks and discontinuities when the gate opens, if they don't align with zero crossings. I guess if you're adding that to an existing sound, you could use the attack from the original, with slower attack from the gate, and beef up the sustain with the sine.

[ashcat_lt]

To beef up a kick (or other drum) with an 808 type sound you can use that old keyed gate trick. Run a low frequency sine wave through the gate, mult the kick into the key or sidechain input, adjust threshold and release and overall mix to taste.

Though that misses one significant part of the 808 - the 808 waveform always restarts when it triggered. Gating a sine can introduce clicks and discontinuities when the gate opens, if they don't align with zero crossings. I guess if you're adding that to an existing sound, you could use the attack from the original, with slower attack from the gate, and beef up the sustain with the sine.

Well, I've never actually done it since I own a D4. It must work well enough, else it wouldn't be an old trick, right? I suppose a gate with an attack knob would give you more control. As for the click: The cool thing about a sine wave is that it's exactly one frequency, so there's plenty of room on either side for filters.

[losthighway]

The studio that every punk band in town used to record at used an Alesis machine for all their kick sounds in the 90's. I liked it at the time, but now when I hear those records it sounds silly when there is a quiet part and there is a hammer hitting wax paper sound going on.

I sent their mastering engineer something to master about a decade ago, when we had a phone conversation about the tracks he brought up some very real problems (I was pretty green then), and also said he thought the kick was a little too dynamic and that at their studio they wouldn't record a real kick drum sound because it "just can't be successfully done with loud rock music, no drummer is that good."

[kslight]

The studio that every punk band in town used to record at used an Alesis machine for all their kick sounds in the 90's. I liked it at the time, but now when I hear those records it sounds silly when there is a quiet part and there is a hammer hitting wax paper sound going on.

I sent their mastering engineer something to master about a decade ago, when we had a phone conversation about the tracks he brought up some very real problems (I was pretty green then), and also said he thought the kick was a little too dynamic and that at their studio they wouldn't record a real kick drum sound because it "just can't be successfully done with loud rock music, no drummer is that good."

LOL, I mean I understand why people sound replace/stack, but it just does nothing for me...it might as well be a drum machine because it sticks out in the mix and not in a good way IMHO. I'm not making hits that have to cut through radio where everyone else does the same thing. I tend to think that if you've got a problem with your drum sounds you've got the wrong drummer and/or the wrong kit and/or a bad engineer. If you are just going to sound replace everything and quantize it to hell why are you bothering to mic a kit at all, just sit the drummer up on an MPC or something and have at it...

[The Scum]

I know the studio and engineers you're talking about. They're still really into kick replacement, though they use plugins now.

Funnily enough I just mixed a tune that was tracked there. The kick got some bass-bump, mid-scoop EQ...I don't even think I compressed it. Worked for me...

[telepathy]

I sent their mastering engineer something to master about a decade ago, when we had a phone conversation about the tracks he brought up some very real problems (I was pretty green then), and also said he thought the kick was a little too dynamic and that at their studio they wouldn't record a real kick drum sound because it "just can't be successfully done with loud rock music, no drummer is that good."

good lord!

to bring it back for a second, I'm solely looking to augment kicks & snares with artificial sounds on purpose, geared toward certain kinds of productions. not to replace or fake real drum sounds.

I like the gated sine-wave move but as The Scum said it's not the same as a real kick envelope, especially for 808-type sounds, which are exactly the kind of kicks I'd be looking to use.

[The Scum]

The Alesis boxes are a cheap way into all this...and with MIDI outputs to expand should you outgrow the onboard sounds. The DMpro lets you load your own samples.

If you want more self-contained electro-fun, the Clavia Nord Drum might be what you're looking for.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

You can do the kick/sine wave trick with snare too. Just replace the sine wave with white noise. Although I'd guess this is much more useful for an 80's Joy Division kind of sound then metal.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

they wouldn't record a real kick drum sound because it "just can't be successfully done with loud rock music, no drummer is that good."

i mean, you'd have to tune the drum, put a mic somewhere near it, AND hit it consistently. can't be done.