multiple reverbs on a mix

[T-rex]

One thing I did for the first time recently was had a single global reverb bus for a mix with no pre-delay, and then I set up different pre-delay busses feeding the reverb bus and fed different parts to the pre-delay busses depending on how far away from the listener I wanted each part to sound.

Cool idea.

+1, that is an interesting idea, I had never thought about that.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

on the subject of reverbs, i haven't mentioned The Pearl Jam Trick in awhile, so here goes:

set up a really long reverb, like 5 seconds or more. if at some points in the song you have some nice sustained vowel sounds (for example the "eeeeeee" in "feeeeeeeeling"), send just that to the verb. nice ear candy. use sparingly.

[lyman]

on the subject of reverbs, i haven't mentioned The Pearl Jam Trick in awhile, so here goes:

set up a really long reverb, like 5 seconds or more. if at some points in the song you have some nice sustained vowel sounds (for example the "eeeeeee" in "feeeeeeeeling"), send just that to the verb. nice ear candy. use sparingly.

That's a good trick for live sound too (assuming the mixer knows the material).

[The Real MC]

A lot of commercial releases have multiple reverbs in the mix. Most of the reverbs are short ambient reverbs, they don't sound obvious. I've been using this technique and my mixes come out a lot better.

[Nick Sevilla]

I use this type of technique mostly on acoustic instrument based songs, where an approximation of a real soundstage is desired

So you're using more reverbs when going for a more natural soundstage? Seems counterintuitive!

Can you give an example of that kind of scenario? Which instruments would you send where?

Hi Austin,

Sure, I can elaborate. As an example, take a song which has the following instruments: Upright Bass, 1 Ac gtr, Banjo, Fiddle, 1 electric guitar, Lead vocal, two BG vocals, and a little bit of percussion.

http://nicksevilla.com/nicksevilla.com/ ... n_Tree.mp3

Imagine you want a stage that is about 8 feet deep, and about 15 feet wide.

The Lead vocal will be the closest to the front.

The upright bass will be the furthest in the back, along with the percussions, and they will be panned opposite each other. Bass left, percs right, at 8 ft depth.

The rest of the instruments will live somewhere in the depth between vocal and bass/percs.

So, I set up the following ambient effects :

Reverb 1 : Short omni ambience, preferably a long dark room. Everyone gets a little of this one, to make them "live" in the same room. More to the further instruments and the least amount to the vocal. This has no predelay at all. It is the "Gel", and might be filtered to lowpass everything above 4k or so. Size, about 0.5 to 0.8 secs.

Reverb 2 : Medium Plate reverb, mainly used for the lead vocal, BGs, and any instrument you want to make sound "larger" that life, but NOT HUGE. This reverb can be about 0.8 to 1.6 seconds decay, with a predelay of about 32 to 55 mS, and gives you the distance from the listener perspective. This one also is brighter than Reverb 1, so the listener can hear it better, for localization cues.

Each reverb gets a Stereo Send from each instrument that will use them, and you pan that reverb one send OPPOSITE the pan position of each instrument. Reverb two can follow the instruments' panning. This makes the definition of instruments better and clearer. Also, these two reverbs are NOT LOUD AT ALL. You should kow they are there, but should be very very subtle. This is important.

Next, I use a short delay, set to create a very short slap which emphasizes the initial reflections of the stage. So, in the case of a 15 foot wide stage, the longest delay would be about 17 mS / 2 = 8.5 mS to the center of the stage. 1126 ft/s / 1000 mS = 1.126 mS per foot of distance. Since the listener is at the center of the stage... this is that 8.5 mS. This delay will also be used sparingly, and to emphasize the Stereo pan image of each instrument. The more defined echo from the walls. Example :

8.5 mS slap delay with about 12% to 16% feedback, in full Stereo.
The upright bass is sent to this Delay FOLLOWING its original pan in the mix, not like the reverb 1. Also, the closer to the right wall it is, the louder the slap delay should be on the right, enforcing the illusion that the bass is on the right side of the stage.
The percussions would then be louder in this delay on the left side.

You have to spend time LISTENING to the delay sends and the original dry signal until you get the best pan position of the SEND. Sometimes it will not be exactly the same as the dry signal mix pan position.

Lastly, I like to use another larger delay, if I still need to distance the lead vocal from the rest, and this delay might be more inline with a "style" as opposed to an actual sound stage, like the "Elvis" echo. This delay also will get sent to the other three effects, as if it was in the room, so it comes off the imaginary space already set up.

Cheers.

PS, yes, I use reverb and delay on the bass. It is a Good Thing.

Also, you HAVE to listen to the original dry signal and determine if you are dealing with DI signals, or signals with ambience, as those ambiences will help determine the size of your imaginary space. And lastly, but not leastly... I sometimes have to use a delay as the fisrt insert on an instrument, IF it still seems too forward in the mix. This delay is 100% wet, no feedback, and is only used to push back the instrument in the fake soundstage. Remember, 1.126 mS delay per foot to push back. This 100% wet delay is your imaginary wheel cart upon which aninstrument sits, and you just can push it back and forth on the stage until it sits in the right depth.

Oh, also, NO INSTRUMENT GETS PANNED 100% LEFT NOR RIGHT. This is so the listener can listen to the reverbs and delays, helping the illusion happen. I usually don't pan beyond 90% left or right in this type of mix.

And don't forget to darken the instruments in the back slightly, to complete the illusion. Bright = Forward in the mix, dark = further away.

[jhharvest]

Interesting! Thanks for that very informative post, Nick!

I sometimes use two reverbs chained together. The sends of the first reverb (or delay) go to the inputs of the second one. This helps sometimes a bit with crap digital reverbs like the Yamaha digidesk built in ones.

[passnthru]

Nick, that was a wonderful insight and inspiring to a verb junky such as myself. Looking forward to applying and personalizing this technique.

One item I'd appreciate clarification on, if you don't mind. Where you write, "Each reverb gets a Stereo Send from each instrument that will use them, and you pan that reverb one send OPPOSITE the pan position of each instrument. Reverb two can follow the instruments' panning. This makes the definition of instruments better and clearer." and I am wondering if by "Stereo Send" you are referring to 2 mono sends or an actual stereo send off the mixer strip. This is my recording inexperience showing, as the majority of my work involves live mixers and mixing vs a DAW situation, but can this be a true stereo send off a mono channel or is it effectively dual mono or is this a function of your mixer sending post panning? Unless you have stereo miced the instruments or some such processing before hand.

And this in particular seems to apply to stereo verbs vs say a mono spring. A further thought is how to introduce a mono verb into this process.

I do find it interesting how, if this is a result of post panning sending, it affects the stereo image and clarity. Just can't wait to apply all this.

I really appreciate your insight and the time you have taken to share this with us.

JP

[Nick Sevilla]

Nick, that was a wonderful insight and inspiring to a verb junky such as myself. Looking forward to applying and personalizing this technique.

One item I'd appreciate clarification on, if you don't mind. Where you write, "Each reverb gets a Stereo Send from each instrument that will use them, and you pan that reverb one send OPPOSITE the pan position of each instrument. Reverb two can follow the instruments' panning. This makes the definition of instruments better and clearer." and I am wondering if by "Stereo Send" you are referring to 2 mono sends or an actual stereo send off the mixer strip. This is my recording inexperience showing, as the majority of my work involves live mixers and mixing vs a DAW situation, but can this be a true stereo send off a mono channel or is it effectively dual mono or is this a function of your mixer sending post panning? Unless you have stereo miced the instruments or some such processing before hand.

And this in particular seems to apply to stereo verbs vs say a mono spring. A further thought is how to introduce a mono verb into this process.

I do find it interesting how, if this is a result of post panning sending, it affects the stereo image and clarity. Just can't wait to apply all this.

I really appreciate your insight and the time you have taken to share this with us.

JP

Hi JP,
Thanks for the kind words.

To answer your question, I mainly am mixing inside ProTools HD, which gives you the option of creating effects returns which can be Mono, Stereo, or even Surround!

This means that you can then send a Mono or Stereo instrument or audio, to that effect return. But you can select to do so also create the SEND in Mono, Stereo or Surround. In simple terms, you can send, say, two panned electric guitars, one only to the right input of a Stereo reverb, the other to the left input, and then the effect will combine them according to its internal workings (many reverbs have what is called a left/right feedback or crossover, which cross feeds signals internally) and helps with getting a more realistic sound.

Specifically to your question as to why I send some things to their opposite side in a reverb, it is because I have found that this helps keep an instrument clear and defined where it is, and the effect, since it is not in the same pan position, when mixed in properly, helps the dimensionality illusion of the mix, by staying away from the original signal, yet helping convince the listener that the instrument is indeed in a real space. This technique helps use LESS amount of an effect in a more effective way, by keeping the dry and wet signals more separated in the Stereo field. Try it. You'll find you can use less of an effect and be more convincing.

Now, in the case of hardware Mono or software Mono effects, I always need to understand why I am using this effect. Example, an electric guitar which was recorded without the spring reverb of an amplifier, and gets a software version, I will always pan the same as the guitar, because I want the listener to believe the spring reverb is from an amplifier. Of course, when getting creative with things you can ignore all rules and do what you believe to be most fun and effective for your song. Like if you have an electric guitar imitating flying birds, and you want to simulate the birds flying, then you can pan both the dry guitar and spring reverb all over the place, and make them be in different places in the Stereo field. Fun.

I hope this long winded explanation clear this up.

Cheers

[vvv]

:puts on close-study hat:

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi,

Just a little more on why I sometimes mix like this, with many effects.

The human brain subconsciously is always processing the incoming signals from all the sensory organs, especially the ears and eyes. It is hardwired, and cannot be consciously changed.

The reason I pan reverbs differently than the dry signal, is precisely because it makes it a lot easier for the brain to localize, i.e. to determine where in the Stereo sound field, a given signal is. When you have a bunch of stuff and it is all feeding one reverb, and this reverb then creates a wash, it is much more confusing to the human brain. And the listener then gets more tired as a result, by the brain working too hard to localize the signal in that miasma of reverb.

That said, I LOVE some records which are drenched in reverb, but again, done properly, where the focus of the main melody signal like the lead vocal or melodic instrument is focused enough to localize it easily, or is panned center so the brain does not have to work hard. Then it's cool. Listen to our own TapeOp's Neil Weir project, Pony Trash. That one is cool, in my book.

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=80401

[passnthru]

Thanks Nick,
That really helps me understand where the stereo feed came from and it totally makes sense about providing a listener a sense expereince that is familiar to how they listen naturally. Something I have been consciously doing for years and now you have reinforced the concept and given theory to it.
I can see this being used in the opposite way, depending on the nature of the song's content, in order to reinforce a mood or song part that has a sense of incongruence or despair to the message.
I will be doing a live mix tomorrow with a chior that is usually miced with a spaced pair of AKG 214's. I may throw an omni or even an X/Y in for body or as an option as well. (I'm careful of phase but I gotta make the choir bigger than life you know.) The venue has a center cluster (technically run stereo) where mics are typically medium/soft (20-40%) panned at best. Really a space where you need to accent and finess things to get clairity and space. For whatever reason I am finding the M7CL, that I work with there, (although it could be the nature of the install which started great but has had a number of user oppinion mods since then) to not sum signals to mono well (not just choir but instruments in general) and I have been widening the stereo field (I know center clusters are not ideal for extreem stereo panning) to the point of hard LCR and it has opened up the space perfectly with little ill effect. (Live sound is a real love of mine because you have so many varriables to adjust to in order to get a great overall experience. In this case the system, the mixer, mic choices, ambience, stage level, etc...)
All of this to say I am going to apply exactly these lessons to that situation live tomorrow. And I'm looking forward to hear it in practice as I'll be looking to create an immediacy and largeness that isn't usually there and expect big things. I'll report back.
JP

[passnthru]

Well that didn't totally work as expected. Sound was fine but discovered mid event that the effx returns were mirrored so was unable to play with the panning. (Who does that? Gang the return pans? ) Too late to get into the brain and undo without risk to the event. Did use short plate, hall verbs and stacked them which added a lot of subtle body to the mix. The omni seemed to fill things in nicely. Only downside was a couple of strong alto's who were a bit above the others and wanted to hide behind the mic stand. If only the conducter had got them to pull back a bit.
Well on to the next mix...
JP

[lbennett420]

Let's talk multiple reverbs...

My default has usually been one global reverb for most things, and then something else (often a plate) for lead vocals. But recently I've been turned onto the idea of having multiple global reverbs going at once -- a long, a short, plus maybe a delay or two thrown in -- and sending things in varying amounts between them all.

What do you do?

If you're trying this, any tips, tricks, things to watch out for?

Well that depends what sound you?re going for. On the last record I did, I slapped a basic short digital verb on the vocal channel strip, then ran that out to a bus with a very short delay then to two plate IR verb busses one panned left the other right, and kept it at a medium level.. as I bussed other lead synths and noises to those verbs as well. The record was kind of dark and psychedelic so it seemed to surround you.

[losthighway]

It's funny, because I do quite a lot of this (not all, some of you have schooled me). But other times I don't add reverb. At all. I make everything sit front to back using mic distance, compression, eq, and panning.

I did an EP that way and it sounded great. But in a totally different way. So I guess I really like using 0-5 different reverbs.

[Burnt Ernie]

I use multiple processers/verbs all the time. I also HATE verb tails.
I LOVE clangy dub spring verb/short regen'ed/clangy echos
I used to do a lot of "big" live shows,where you hadda invent some kinda
natural ambience/space for the crappy/monitor bleedy stage volume situation. Couldnt use room mics(other than drum overs)
Close micing in a great live rig was fine,but space/ambience is must have for sonic happiness.
Played with predelay/pre and post filtering. You don't want a bunch of snizzy highs sizzling away on a vocal track where you're already overtaxing a de-esser.
You also probably don't want a bunch of 68 hz blowing out all the headroom on your "perfect" kick drum verb.
You probably dont want a bunch of 2.5-4 khz snizzing out your ambience/verb setting on your close guitar mics.
You know where I'm getting at.
I like stuff DRY
Think of 1 room(small/big/stage) where everyone's playing live -that's the glue. .Elements can,and should move within those spaces Hopefully that's by music being played by people that can play music,and with their bandmates. .That's Motown. That's punk rock,along with everything else hat's ever been "good".. That's llive shows.i Really.
If you can record stuff with close/far mic'ing,this becomes much simpler,and satisfying. A reverb box/plug in will work,but will take you out of intuitive/productive mode into the other side of your brain,where music goes to DIE
Since I have a low ceilinged room,typically something REALLY short,with a tweaked predelay on close mics
on drums I used to use the AMS boxes for lots of that(Nonlin being a fave).
Easy results with pre or post filtering within fx box. I used those for bark/clang/sustain. Early on,all you saw was spx90's/pcm70,pcm60(FAVE!),
Definitely something different to imply sense of space on instruments. Doesnt matter which. Pre/post fx filtering,predelay,and verb tail length If you're trying to invent space in your space (which may not have any),tweak away. I recommend filtering.
I never start with verb on vox.Love h3000 micro pitching (spx90/900/tc m one),maybe MXR flanger doubler(fave on vox and bass).
Really doesnt matter which box you use,mostly about back to front,
bottom to top. If you're recording everything in a bedroom or closet,go nuts.
Otherwise-put some room mics up somewhere "wrong",and then you can smash the shit out of them for some ambience.
Have fun,Eric.