antelope Orion 32

[drumsound]

No never, I listen with my eyes.

That is the way you come off on virtually EVERY post you ever make.

[digitaldrummer]

hey, hey. settle down now....

for converters I can definitely see why looking at the specs is important. For converters I don't think you want them coloring the sound too much. but on the other hand a common theme I see here between Tony and Chris (and myself, although I haven't heard the Orion yet) is... drummers. And as drummers I think we tend to think a little analog distortion is pleasing - at least I do (or maybe our hearing is just shot). Nearly every preamp I own has transformers in and out and I like the sound. It would be interesting to hear from someone who had experience with the Orion on Orchestral material or something where some color might be less desirable. Maybe some Millenia preamps or something that brags about being colorless...

I don't do this kind of recording myself and I don't know if I'd hear the difference anyway. one of my reasons for looking at a new interface/converter is that the ADAT expansion on my BLA modded Digi 002r still limits me to 24/48Khz (although I usually record at 24/44.1) and the ability to record at 96KHz or higher seems interesting for some things. but again, recording drums and guitars at 24/44.1 -- not sure I can or will ever hear this level of difference in specs... (when I got the BLA modded 002R though I definitely did hear the difference)

[dfuruta]

-98 dbu THD+noise for the DAC is piss-poor performance, not even up to 17 bit specs. Burrbrown's best DAC's do -117 dbu THD+noise and ESS has one that does -120 dbu THD+noise. Take 20+ db of dirt off your conversion and you will hear that.

Bullshit.

There's a difference between the chip's performance and the full implementation's, as I'm sure you know (the implementation is never going to be as good as the chip alone); the Orion's quoted performance seems totally acceptable. I don't need below .001% THD+N in my playback system, and I really doubt you do either (honestly, can you hear that? I can't). Also worth noting that Antelope specifies the ADC at -105dB THD+N, and both at 118dB dynamic range.

And, to nitpick, THD+N measurements are in dB, not dBu, as they're relative to the fundamental and not to 0dBu.

[drumsound]

hey, hey. settle down now....

for converters I can definitely see why looking at the specs is important. For converters I don't think you want them coloring the sound too much. but on the other hand a common theme I see here between Tony and Chris (and myself, although I haven't heard the Orion yet) is... drummers. And as drummers I think we tend to think a little analog distortion is pleasing - at least I do (or maybe our hearing is just shot). Nearly every preamp I own has transformers in and out and I like the sound. It would be interesting to hear from someone who had experience with the Orion on Orchestral material or something where some color might be less desirable. Maybe some Millenia preamps or something that brags about being colorless...

I don't do this kind of recording myself and I don't know if I'd hear the difference anyway. one of my reasons for looking at a new interface/converter is that the ADAT expansion on my BLA modded Digi 002r still limits me to 24/48Khz (although I usually record at 24/44.1) and the ability to record at 96KHz or higher seems interesting for some things. but again, recording drums and guitars at 24/44.1 -- not sure I can or will ever hear this level of difference in specs... (when I got the BLA modded 002R though I definitely did hear the difference)

I've recorded acoustic guitar and vocals with the Orion and 96k using pretty clean sounding mics and pres and it sounds lovely. If you PM me you email I'll send it to you.

[Jim Williams]

-98 dbu THD+noise for the DAC is piss-poor performance, not even up to 17 bit specs. Burrbrown's best DAC's do -117 dbu THD+noise and ESS has one that does -120 dbu THD+noise. Take 20+ db of dirt off your conversion and you will hear that.

Bullshit.

There's a difference between the chip's performance and the full implementation's, as I'm sure you know (the implementation is never going to be as good as the chip alone); the Orion's quoted performance seems totally acceptable. I don't need below .001% THD+N in my playback system, and I really doubt you do either (honestly, can you hear that? I can't). Also worth noting that Antelope specifies the ADC at -105dB THD+N, and both at 118dB dynamic range.

And, to nitpick, THD+N measurements are in dB, not dBu, as they're relative to the fundamental and not to 0dBu.

Not entirely correct. Any competent designer can make the converter chip perform at claimed specs. That is the reason they provide EVM pcb's for these chipsets. They show the designers how to implement the chipsets to obtain published specs. Yes, they want you to succeed and meet specs.

The analog support circuitry is also of paramount importance, anyone want to tell what low cost opamps are used? I'm not entirly comfortable discussing a product we know nothing about, including chipsets and power supply design.

If 16 bit THD playback performance is acceptible to you, you should give a listen to some of the better stuff out there. As for dynamic range, compare to the BurrBrown PCM1794 in a dual cosign configuration, that set up does -132 db dynamic range, within 8 db of 24 bit reproduction. Yes, I have that here too.

I need better than a -98 db THD+noise DAC. There is a reason this place is loaded with a dozen or so EVM modules from various manufacturers and several custom made rigs, there is a large sonic difference. The box under discussion is not even close to the specs and performance of my analog console and chain. You may not need better, I do.

YMMV.

[Bro Shark]

Be fantastic if someone from Antelope could throw in their $0.02 here.

I'm not invested either way but do find this kind of stuff interesting. The Orion is a cool looking box and is reasonably priced for the feature set. Cool to see how these things evolve compared to what was out there even five years ago.

[cgarges]

a common theme I see here between Tony and Chris (and myself, although I haven't heard the Orion yet) is... drummers.

Yes, but you're also hearing from two guys who have done the very large majority of their recording for the last decade through iZ converters. While I agree with your sentiment that at least I happen to find certain colorations pleasing, the iZ converters have had a stellar reputation amongst all kind of musicians for a very long time. The same can be said of something like the AwTAC mic preamps, which were designed to be anything BUT flat. Put those things on a guitar amp and put a Millenia preamp on a guitar amp. Everything we do requires a choice and often it's a choice between accuracy and perceived "excitement." I'll choose whatever's exciting to me (even if it's something relatively "accurate") almost every time, but I never, ever, ever do it based on specs. I've heard recordings done with the Orion and I thought they sounded good. I think it's a smart design and the price point works, but I'm basing my opinion on what I heard, not what I read. Argue otherwise all you want. (Not you, specifically, dd.)

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[mn412]

A question for the "two guys who have done the very large majority of their recording for the last decade through iZ converters" It looks like you are both on consoles and primarily not in the box. Since switching to the Orion are you finding issues with latency? I haven't heard the Orion but, hear how great it sounds but, has it changed your workflow?

[digitaldrummer]

Since switching to the Orion are you finding issues with latency? I haven't heard the Orion but, hear how great it sounds but, has it changed your workflow?

although I'm not coming from iZ/Radar, I may be about to find out... I just picked one of these up. I'm waiting for a monitor controller to arrive before I get everything hooked up. so far I have only done a power up to make sure I could register the Orion and that my system sees it - and I did a quick playback but used the software mixer to control the output volume (I can't use that for real sessions though). I'm hoping that by this weekend I'll have all the pieces to switch over and then start comparing mixes as well as doing some recording. and latency is a big concern.

I'm using Pro Tools 9 (not HD). I'm moving from a Black Lion tweakhead modded digi 002r and an RME ADI. I've actually been very pleased with the sounds I can get but I wanted more I/O options and I like the idea of all AD/DA being the same (today my latency through the ADAT connected RME is slightly different from the 002r I/O and when using outboard its kind of a mindf***...) . Now I will have way more than I need in the short term, but this allows me to expand and also to keep outboard patched in so its always ready to go.

I'm going to start with a Presonus Central Station for now, but eventually plan to replace that with either the Dangerous D-box or the Coleman M3PH MKii. I typically work ITB so I'm not sure about the summing on the d-box. I built my own 8 channel passive summing box and it didn't do much for me, but then again I don't have another to compare to so maybe mine was F**'d up. so I might also consider the Coleman and then later add a Folcrom or 2bus-LT (as I think 16 channels of analog summing would be more useful than . then again if I found a decent affordable console, that's always another option.

Mike

[drumsound]

A question for the "two guys who have done the very large majority of their recording for the last decade through iZ converters" It looks like you are both on consoles and primarily not in the box. Since switching to the Orion are you finding issues with latency? I haven't heard the Orion but, hear how great it sounds but, has it changed your workflow?

Because I have the console, I use it to negate any latency issues with heaphones. I feed the players from the console before it hits the conversion. There's a pretty cool software routing mixer dealy with the Orion, but, besides routing my mix to the extra in on my console I don't do mush with it.

I'd probably be lost without a console, or, ya know, have to learn something new.

[digitaldrummer]

this past weekend I got everything switched over equipment-wise. Now I am 100% committed to the Orion (yikes!) which means I have to figure out the latency thing. I have a few questions in to Antelope and waiting on answers. One question is regarding the latency. Even with lowest ASIO setting (64 sample buffer and "minimal latency" USB streaming mode) Pro Tools 9 still reports a 128 sample buffer. I may be able to get by with that - I'm not hearing too much latency when recording drums, but one person said they could detect some latency when we were recording a keyboard (analog out of the keyboard through DI in preamps). I'm confused why PT won't go to 64 samples like the Orion control panel does... I'm looking for the optimal setting and I'm hoping that doesn't require a console as that is not part of my plan right now...

other than that, still getting my head around the software mixer and then have had to go in and change all of the I/O settings in my Pro Tools sessions to use the Orion.

sound-wise, I have no complaints. It sounds every bit as good as what I had before (BLA 002r and RME). Having 32 channels of I/O is really nice. I need to buy or make a few more snakes. that will allow me to keep outboard gear patched in all the time.

Mike

[Osumosan]

Are you saying there's no way to monitor the inputs of the Orion without using a dedicated mixer?

[digitaldrummer]

Are you saying there's no way to monitor the inputs of the Orion without using a dedicated mixer?

no. just saying I can't figure out how to get low latency like I had with my previous hardware. Antelope support couldn't give me anything to help either (except to say that only Pro Tools seems to have these issues...). so for the moment I'm debating whether I keep this unit or not...

I also did a before and after bounce (in the box) of something I was working on. all of the tracking was done with the old interface, but I bounced it with the old hardware, then made the exact same bounce only changing the hardware and the I/O assignments in the PT session. the mix sounds slightly different and I'm not sure I like it as well. The old mix seems to have more punch and low end. I initially sensed it but then another person who heard the mix said the same thing (and I never said anything about it). I suppose I could remix it to compensate but I'm not sure that is the right way to proceed. but I need to do some more work with it to be sure.

Mike

[cgarges]

I also did a before and after bounce (in the box) of something I was working on. all of the tracking was done with the old interface, but I bounced it with the old hardware, then made the exact same bounce only changing the hardware and the I/O assignments in the PT session. the mix sounds slightly different and I'm not sure I like it as well. The old mix seems to have more punch and low end. I initially sensed it but then another person who heard the mix said the same thing (and I never said anything about it). I suppose I could remix it to compensate but I'm not sure that is the right way to proceed. but I need to do some more work with it to be sure.

So, this is just a difference in the clock, right?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Osumosan]

no. just saying I can't figure out how to get low latency like I had with my previous hardware. Antelope support couldn't give me anything to help either (except to say that only Pro Tools seems to have these issues...). so for the moment I'm debating whether I keep this unit or not...

Most interfaces have a mix array where you can send your inputs to the outputs with zero latency. Is there something I'm missing here?