How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

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Recycled_Brains
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:23 am

drumsound wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:10 pm
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:39 am
drumsound wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:57 pm
Where are you placing the mic, and what type of mic. In the past I'd get hash like you're describing, usually with an AT Pro37 because that seemed like what was 'supposed' to be used. I had it right under the snared, close to the center of the head (working around the stand). That sound is why, after a few ties, I gave up.

I got intrigued by what Rodgre said, so I tried his method, and I used an M88. It was a night and day difference.
I think I do it the same way, if I understand his post. I mirror the top mic. Same angle, capsule same distance from the bottom head as the other mic is from the top head, same distance in from the rim, pointing at the snares.
what mic?
Usually a 57 on bottom. M201 or 441 on top.
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by drumsound » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:26 pm

Recycled_Brains wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:23 am
drumsound wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:10 pm
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:39 am


I think I do it the same way, if I understand his post. I mirror the top mic. Same angle, capsule same distance from the bottom head as the other mic is from the top head, same distance in from the rim, pointing at the snares.
what mic?
Usually a 57 on bottom. M201 or 441 on top.
Maybe it was just the balance, too much and it gets ugly. Or maybe it just isn't your thing...

Though the 57 ugliness is probably totally accentuated by the source.

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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:11 am

drumsound wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:26 pm
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:23 am
drumsound wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:10 pm


what mic?
Usually a 57 on bottom. M201 or 441 on top.
Maybe it was just the balance, too much and it gets ugly. Or maybe it just isn't your thing...

Though the 57 ugliness is probably totally accentuated by the source.
I think it's just not my thing 60-75% of the time. haha. I always keep it very low in the mix.

Oh... I almost forgot... line up the bottom mic with the top in your DAW. HUGE difference. In my case it's usually around 10-14 samples off. If you nudge it to match the top, it sounds 8,000x better.
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by drumsound » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:37 pm

Recycled_Brains wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:11 am
drumsound wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:26 pm
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:23 am


Usually a 57 on bottom. M201 or 441 on top.
Maybe it was just the balance, too much and it gets ugly. Or maybe it just isn't your thing...

Though the 57 ugliness is probably totally accentuated by the source.
I think it's just not my thing 60-75% of the time. haha. I always keep it very low in the mix.

Oh... I almost forgot... line up the bottom mic with the top in your DAW. HUGE difference. In my case it's usually around 10-14 samples off. If you nudge it to match the top, it sounds 8,000x better.
I may try that when I mix what I tracked this way last weekend.

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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:34 am

drumsound wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:37 pm
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:11 am
drumsound wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:26 pm


Maybe it was just the balance, too much and it gets ugly. Or maybe it just isn't your thing...

Though the 57 ugliness is probably totally accentuated by the source.
I think it's just not my thing 60-75% of the time. haha. I always keep it very low in the mix.

Oh... I almost forgot... line up the bottom mic with the top in your DAW. HUGE difference. In my case it's usually around 10-14 samples off. If you nudge it to match the top, it sounds 8,000x better.
I may try that when I mix what I tracked this way last weekend.
I think it pretty drastically helps the phase relationship of the snare, and by proxy, every mic on the kit. Flipping the polarity on the bottom or top doesn't get you all the way there. I line up the peaks to start, then nudge a sample or two in either direction to see if it's better, but usually that isn't necessary.
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by digitaldrummer » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 am

if you happen to be a UAD user, the Little Labs IBP plugin works great for this (and don't have to zoom in - just turn the knobs and listen...)
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:40 am

digitaldrummer wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 am
if you happen to be a UAD user, the Little Labs IBP plugin works great for this (and don't have to zoom in - just turn the knobs and listen...)
I tried that plugin for lining up bass amp/DI once or twice. Maybe I didn't really get it, but nudging the wave was a lot easier (and free) for me.
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by floid » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:07 pm

Recycled_Brains wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:40 am
digitaldrummer wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 am
if you happen to be a UAD user, the Little Labs IBP plugin works great for this (and don't have to zoom in - just turn the knobs and listen...)
I tried that plugin for lining up bass amp/DI once or twice. Maybe I didn't really get it, but nudging the wave was a lot easier (and free) for me.
Not a UAD user but Reaper has a phase plugin that I think is the same concept, allowing 360 degrees of phase rotation. I've tried it a few times and... I dunno, maybe it's not a very good execution of the concept, or I just don't get it, or need to train my ears better. I tend to use it when trying to nudge tracks only to realize there's not a 1:1 correspondence between the peaks on each track. But it usually turns into trying to figure out if 45 degrees sounds better than 90 than 60 or if any of these settings plus a polarity flip sounds worse than just the flip by itself ad infinitum, until a half hour has passed and I no longer have any idea what sounds right or if the original relationship even had a problem to begin with.
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by trodden » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:58 pm

I have little patience anymore due to the state of the world and the anxiety that it brings. So i apologize greatly for not checking out everyone's responses, for i'm sure I'd learn a lot and appreciate all of them as well as likely not repeat the same thing that someone else has already said. But here we are, the internet.

The last 8-10 years. Snare top (beyer 201, and holy fuck just learned the last two years that its an amazing guitar amp mic as well, especially paired with a ribbon, so now i need three). Snare bottom, Stedman n90, 421, or sm57. Then automate the gate plugin so god damn much that it makes you crazy but anytime you mute the bottom snare mic, you miss it, so you just fucking deal with it.

Although the Beyer 201 is "new" to it all, i've been top and bottoming for a long time. I've always made room for the bottom mic track, even when on 16 track analog. I'd just cross my fingers and pre mix to one track if i had to make track room. I've always needed it for the music I do.

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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:55 am

floid wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:07 pm
I tend to use it when trying to nudge tracks only to realize there's not a 1:1 correspondence between the peaks on each track. But it usually turns into trying to figure out if 45 degrees sounds better than 90 than 60 or if any of these settings plus a polarity flip sounds worse than just the flip by itself ad infinitum, until a half hour has passed and I no longer have any idea what sounds right or if the original relationship even had a problem to begin with.
That was my experience as well. I have no patience for shit like that when it's SO easy (and again, free) to zoom in on a waveform and move it around. It has to be more accurate too. It's one of the perks of a DAW that should be exploited when necessary.
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:00 am

trodden wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:58 pm
I have little patience anymore due to the state of the world and the anxiety that it brings. So i apologize greatly for not checking out everyone's responses, for i'm sure I'd learn a lot and appreciate all of them as well as likely not repeat the same thing that someone else has already said. But here we are, the internet.

The last 8-10 years. Snare top (beyer 201, and holy fuck just learned the last two years that its an amazing guitar amp mic as well, especially paired with a ribbon, so now i need three). Snare bottom, Stedman n90, 421, or sm57. Then automate the gate plugin so god damn much that it makes you crazy but anytime you mute the bottom snare mic, you miss it, so you just fucking deal with it.

Although the Beyer 201 is "new" to it all, i've been top and bottoming for a long time. I've always made room for the bottom mic track, even when on 16 track analog. I'd just cross my fingers and pre mix to one track if i had to make track room. I've always needed it for the music I do.
201 is the fucking JAM on snare and amps.

Have you thought of adding a snare sample that you can use just for triggering the gate so you don't have to automate your gates so damn much? I do it almost every mix now. Comes in handy for all sorts of whacky side-chain crap actually. Same for bass drum.
Ryan Slowey
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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by trodden » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:49 pm

Recycled_Brains wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:00 am


Have you thought of adding a snare sample that you can use just for triggering the gate so you don't have to automate your gates so damn much? I do it almost every mix now. Comes in handy for all sorts of whacky side-chain crap actually. Same for bass drum.
Damn. That's a fucking brilliant idea! THANK YOU.

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Re: How important is it to mic the bottom of a snare?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:39 am

trodden wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:49 pm
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:00 am


Have you thought of adding a snare sample that you can use just for triggering the gate so you don't have to automate your gates so damn much? I do it almost every mix now. Comes in handy for all sorts of whacky side-chain crap actually. Same for bass drum.
Damn. That's a fucking brilliant idea! THANK YOU.
You're welcome. That was a gem that the dude that took me under his wing early on taught me. I use the samples to trigger gates, individual bands on dynamic EQ's, expanders on room mics, ducking stuff.... all sorts of things. You can get pretty creative with it.
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