My Massive Preamp Comparison

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My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by losthighway » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:09 pm

What we have here is a semi-exhaustive preamp comparison. One song tracked front to back using Allen and Heath, Api, Chandler Germanium, Great River and Sytek preamps.

https://soundcloud.com/trevor-mcmorris/ ... al_sharing

The purpose: To analyze the theory that while many preamps might not have pronounced sonic differences, the sound of their circuits becomes more important as multiple tracks are stacked on top of each other. Personally I have specifically used certain preamps to record specific instruments for years with only occasional experiments diverting from my usual signal flow.

The methodology: This was done in the simplest way possible to yield the best overall, subjective sense of how these preamps sound. It is not science. A shootout scientist could have a field day with exactly how problematic this would be as a science experiment. Instead I think of it as making 5 little paintings each with a different type of brush to see how they might look and feel different, not as a data-driven analysis of their respective bristle width. Any eq’ing was done to all 5 instances of the track/instrument. I was gentle and general, but I did want some sense of how a mixed track might sound with each of these. I did just a pinch of limiting to the mix down of each of these for the same reason. The limiter was used with identical settings on all five songs.

Most importantly: This is the same song recorded 5 times. Each instrument has 5 probably slightly unique takes. I played the drums first to a click track and a DI rough of the tune. I made it a point to do each instrument’s takes through each of the 5 preamps in each session so I didn’t come back with a different vibe or cadence after being away for a couple days.

I used meters on the way in and on playback to get levels close, and then hopefully closer. They’re probably slightly different, but also there is a rabbit hole of peak level, specific transients, vs average level. I didn’t dive down that hole, more of a broadside of a barn thing.

I only have 2 channels of Chandler and Great River, but I wanted to use every preamp type I have, so I did a limited drum mic’ing technique.

The music/performances: This was a fairly long and tedious process, so I wanted a short piece of music that had a typical amount of density in its arrangement. Apologies for the morbid/existentialist undertones on the song, it popped into my head driving past all of the places listed in the lyric. I started to think of it as the theme song for a very offbeat sitcom.

Also I imagine the consistency of the guitars and bass are best with the drums okayish, and the sax and vocal tracks having a bigger range in quality. I’m a mediocre singer without delusions who does it for love of doing it. It usually takes me at least half a dozen takes of anything to get the intonation into an acceptable ballpark and I didn’t have the patience to multiply that by 5 for this experiment. I try not to let the pitch of one vocal performance vs another allow me to favor or dislike a preamp. The outside listener will probably be better at this. (also the guitars needed a setup but I wanted to hear their tonal differences so I kept the occasionally conflicting guitars in- excuse the intonation problems)

Mic’ing setup:
Drums low mic (two feet in front of the kick more towards the snare side) Mojave 301 FET
Drums high mic (a few feet above the snare) Cole 4038
Acoustic guitar- Josephson E22S a couple feet out from the 12th fret angled slightly towards the bridge, a couple db of compression from a DBX 160A
Electric guitar R- telecaster into a Traynor through a 2x12 mic’d with a Beyerdynamic M201
Electric guitar L- (mixed lower, comes in halfway through) a capo’d Guild SG into a Dr. Z Jetta combo mic’d with a Beyerdynamic M160
Bass- Fender Jazz bass into a Mesa 400 head into a 2x15 cabinet. Mic’d with an SM7. A few db of compression from a Retro Sta Level
Vocals- Pearlman TM47, a little DBX 160A overeasy on the way in, some more Retro STA Level in mixing as well as a little room sound from the TC Electronic Reverb 4000
Saxophones- SM7. A little compression from Waves Rcomp to even them out and a pinch of stock plugin reverb.

The results:
You decide. I was pretty surprised by a few elements of this, but I will let everyone have at it before I weigh in.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by emrr » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:29 pm

What a tough thing to try and compare. I took a quick pass. Differences I hear are easily slight level changes for the most part. Will take another pass later.

The option of doing this through a splitter so the performance is the same doesn't really work either, as the paralleled inputs all affect each other and overall input Z for the mic is lowered, also very imperfect and non real world.

I recall tracking on a Neve full of 34115 and 34114 modules (20 year old caps, no service) in the era where I tracked mostly with early Mackie, and the treble of the Neve felt totally rolled off in comparison. Shocking to hear. When I listen to that and things from the same era I mainly hear the location and source differences.

I use a lot of ancient pre's that are much more colored than anything in this test, it's audible as a class of preamp, but also hard to tell which is the RCA versus the Gates versus the Altec, etc. Later I have a sense of the general type I used, but probably don't know the exact one without checking the input list for the session.
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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by losthighway » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:09 pm

Okay, not a ton of chatter so I suppose I'll share a few of my takeaways.

First I was struck by how little the preamps mattered overall. I can hear some differences both solo'd tracks and whole mix but they're more subtle than I predicted. In some cases the differences are clearer with solo'd tracks which works against the "stacked tracks through a preamp builds up that pres audible fingerprint" theory.

I'm impressed with how well the Allen and Heath can hang with the big boys. It's very close to the Api tracks. I'd say the Api has a bit more mid zing that helps transient information stand out a little more, but it's very subtle. I might even like the A+H as much or more than the Sytek. I wouldn't hesitate to send any tracking overflow to my board when recording. It will not cause problems.

The Chandler Germs are definitely the most unique in my collection, but it's still fairly subtle. I used the 'thick' setting on guitar and bass, and used the 'feedback' and pad functions to drive them a little harder (but never crazy hard) cause that's sort of what they're designed for. There's definitely a saturation, euphonic thing in there that sounds vibey and old school at it's best and a little grainy, or smeared in the mids at its worst.

The Great Rivers almost sound softer than the others. The sweet highs and oomph in the low are there while there's a relaxed mid presence that almost made individual tracks feel weaker in comparison but accumulated to feel smoother or more mixed sounding to me. I could almost imagine the GR profile to be a subtle smile curve.

Again these effects are all very subtle to me, like 2-5% of what you're hearing.

I'm not about to sell of my fancy pres, but I think if I were to do it again I'd get fancy mics first and use the board preamps. I'm pretty sure a 4038 through an Allen and Heath or maybe even Mackie preamp is going to play out better than a budget condenser through an API. Maybe a legit Neve, or BAE or Avedis that I've lusted after would change my tune but I think I've found a general pattern.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by permanent hearing damage » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:11 pm

I have a preamp shootout I wanna share, too!! I gotta wait til a record comes out (used the guitar DI for Reamping).

I mostly did it to see if I could justify keeping my UA 2108 (one had just sold for $3k!) and I had just bought Audioscape’s take on it - v108. I used several other pres for shits and giggles. I was floored how how close they all were, generally. All were great pres but when the CAPI VP26 nulled as much with the 2108 as the v108, I was pretty shocked - and they sounded damn close!

Invested as I am in pres, I do wish I had dropped my dollars into mics instead.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by Snarl 12/8 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:06 pm

I only listened to this briefly, through my phone speaker, so I wasn't going to comment. But I gotta say, the thought that ran through my head was "I'm good with my Allen & Heath." Pre's always struck me as coming after mics and compressors on the shopping list and I don't have any great mics or compressors yet, so... But I always had a nagging doubt in the back of my head about that, so thanks for the shootout and your observations.
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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by Scodiddly » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:51 pm

We are inundated with competent gear these days - electronics are, taking the long view, fantastic. As usual it's the tricky electromechanical stuff that really matters, mics and speakers. Not to mention talent and acoustics.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by standup » Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:13 am

Interesting. You’re right, the differences are subtle, but I can hear a bit. Chandler was “more different” than the others. Allen & Heath held up well. I’m disappointed API wasn’t more of a standout.

First external mic pres I ever bought were APIs, on the reco of an engineer I had worked with. I also have 4 Focusrite ISAs as utility pres, AEA for ribbons (and all dynamics), Five Fish Audio which were also kind of cheap and decent. Then I got a pair of RND 511s as my high end option. But they sometimes sound a bit “hard”, so I picked up a Lachapell half rack tube pre, hoping for something more lush.

Maybe I’m done with mic pres. I also use the built in pres in my MOTU interface, which are not bad at all. When I’m lazy and want to plug into something near the desk where I’m sitting, there’s a short snake with those inputs near where I sit.

Edited to add: my first listen was on a tablet with Sennheiser consumer headphones. Listening on monitors a little later, the APIs, for example, sounded a little more aggressive and more present than the Allen & Heath. Great River did have a softness, Sytek seemed a lot like A&H. Probably more than a 2% difference to my ear between all the options.
Last edited by standup on Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by trodden » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:20 am

permanent hearing damage wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:11 pm
All were great pres but when the CAPI VP26 nulled as much with the 2108 as the v108, I was pretty shocked - and they sounded damn close!

Invested as I am in pres, I do wish I had dropped my dollars into mics instead.
This is excellent info. Thank you.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by Scodiddly » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:41 pm

trodden wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:20 am
permanent hearing damage wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:11 pm
All were great pres but when the CAPI VP26 nulled as much with the 2108 as the v108, I was pretty shocked - and they sounded damn close!

Invested as I am in pres, I do wish I had dropped my dollars into mics instead.
This is excellent info. Thank you.
Is this a bad time to bring up DIY mics? Because this a *fantastic* time to DIY pretty high quality recording microphones. Not kidding in the least.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by trodden » Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:01 am

Scodiddly wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:41 pm
trodden wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:20 am
permanent hearing damage wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:11 pm
All were great pres but when the CAPI VP26 nulled as much with the 2108 as the v108, I was pretty shocked - and they sounded damn close!

Invested as I am in pres, I do wish I had dropped my dollars into mics instead.
This is excellent info. Thank you.
Is this a bad time to bring up DIY mics? Because this a *fantastic* time to DIY pretty high quality recording microphones. Not kidding in the least.
I'm all ears!

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by Nick Sevilla » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:32 pm

In my order of overall preference:

Great River.
Allen & Heath.
Sytek.
Chandler.
API.

The API sounds MUFFLED. Might need servicing. No top end...
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by Nick Sevilla » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:35 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:06 pm
I only listened to this briefly, through my phone speaker, so I wasn't going to comment. But I gotta say, the thought that ran through my head was "I'm good with my Allen & Heath." Pre's always struck me as coming after mics and compressors on the shopping list and I don't have any great mics or compressors yet, so... But I always had a nagging doubt in the back of my head about that, so thanks for the shootout and your observations.
I love my 14 year old Allen & Heath 2800-32. Best fucking 5K I spent on any sort of gear. Bought new, will use it until it cannot be used anymore. They really made the best solid state preamp for that price point, period. If you ever want to see the schematics, I got em.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by The Scum » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:52 pm

I'm pretty sure I've recommended the Chandler Germanium as one of the few preamps that really stands out as different from it's peers.

There's only so far from "accurate preamp" that things can diverge before you no longer have a useful general purpose preamp. Sometimes the differences are at the edges of the margins - one preamp offers a little more gain, another has a lower noise floor, one has a better distortion character when pushed, is a tiny bit brighter or darker, etc. If you're working to stay within the margins (which is arguably the right way to use a preamp), you might not have huge contrast.

Which Great River was in the shootout? An NV?

I'm also reminded of some of the inline barrel adapter gizmos people have made through the years - Paul Stamler's slug resistor, or Ethan Winer's hi/lopass deals. The slug resistor can alter a dynamic mic in interesting ways (or variable input Z if you've got the option onboard).

Mics seem to make a more distinct difference in the voicing of the recording...I recently bought a "box o mics" on Craigslist, all budget dynamics from the 70's through the 90's. Even the jankiest (a Univox that looks like an AKG D140) works fine for basic applications, but has a pronounced midrange emphasis.
Is this a bad time to bring up DIY mics? Because this a *fantastic* time to DIY pretty high quality recording microphones. Not kidding in the least.
I'm all ears!
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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by losthighway » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:55 pm

The Scum wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:52 pm

Which Great River was in the shootout? An NV?
Yeah, the 500NV.

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Re: My Massive Preamp Comparison

Post by trodden » Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:46 pm

Nick Sevilla wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:35 pm
Snarl 12/8 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:06 pm
I only listened to this briefly, through my phone speaker, so I wasn't going to comment. But I gotta say, the thought that ran through my head was "I'm good with my Allen & Heath." Pre's always struck me as coming after mics and compressors on the shopping list and I don't have any great mics or compressors yet, so... But I always had a nagging doubt in the back of my head about that, so thanks for the shootout and your observations.
I love my 14 year old Allen & Heath 2800-32. Best fucking 5K I spent on any sort of gear. Bought new, will use it until it cannot be used anymore. They really made the best solid state preamp for that price point, period. If you ever want to see the schematics, I got em.
I'm reminded how awesome this console is a few times a year. I really wish I went that route after wrestling with a Soundtracs Topaz for 15 years. The Soundtracs sounded great, it was just a pain in the ass to repair when shit started to go south. I just got my AMEK BCII back from the shop. $1800 later and it's at least "useable" but with a list of things that really need to be done. I had them recap the power supply and the master channel. As well as clean up a mess of a mod done to it by a previous owner that gives me direct outs. It could use a recap of EVERYTHING as well as 5-6 EQ and Aux pots replaced since they're seized or very difficult to turn.

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