Amp loudness at practive versus small club

[rty5150]

It doesn't actually take all that much volume to get the sustain and controlled feedback from an amp. As somebody mentioned above, once you get the guitarist to turn down, you've still got the fucking drummer to worry about. He doesn't have a volume control, and has to rely on restraint, which is a word most drummers don't seem to understand.

The right answer is amp simulators and drum triggers, but you'll never sell that.

that's actually how my bad practices. we all use pods(2 guitar and one bass) and yamaha dtxpress kit with live cymbals with moon gel on the cymbals to mute them a tad. everything gets fed into the PA and then mixed to the room.


rich

[Harry]

loud rock band are loud for a reason....they're loud rock bands:)


Make a point to the whole band..."everyone NEEDS to be able to hear what EVERYONE else is doing.

There are a lot of good solutions here(assuming the pod thing was a joke?)
work it out as a band.

I bet that OR50 sounds sweet cranked!!!!!!


Just curious though.....was the twin not loud enough?

[teleharmonium]

Attenuators cannot solve this problem. After about -6 or -8 db of attenuation, they disproportionately kill the high end. Also, old school rock guitarists (the kind that would use an Orange half stack) get part of their distortion from the speakers themselves. That's a big part of why turning down the amp fucks up the tone. If your sound is based on the power amp giving you extra sustain and harmonics, and the speakers adding even more harmonics, you are not going to be happy without it. You can't even play the melody lines the same way as you normally would, because the notes die out sooner. It's like wearing 2 condoms. And you've radically changed the gain structure of the rig, so that now your pedal settings that used to use for solos to send you into overdrive bliss, now just make you a little louder and too bright. Master volumes ? You've heard them, right ? They create preamp distortion only. That's OK if you're doing 80s style metal; otherwise, not so much. On a vintage style amp that doesn't have many gain stages, such as an 18 watt Marshall to which a post phase invertor master volume pot has been added, they can't even create much preamp distortion.

The difference in results that turning down involves is almost comparable to asking a trumpet player to use a mute and being surprised that they don't want to do that all the time.

There is nothing like a cranked tube amp interacting with speakers that are well mated to the amp. Nothing. Not even close. You're entertaining a delusion if you think turning it down shouldn't be a big deal to a guitarist that uses natural sounding distortion.

The guitarist needs a selection of amps and cabinets that can produce an acceptable version of his sound (from his perspective) at several volume levels. If he will go for open backed cabinets instead of closed, so much the better, but he might not want to give up the low end punch. He needs to find the least efficient speakers that work for him tonally, and match them up closely to the amp's output so that the speakers will distort but not blow. This kind of evolution of a rig takes lots of trial and error, ie time and money. I think you're always better off dealing with the real answer to the problem, difficult as it is, rather than trying other stuff first that isn't going to work and you'll only get to the starting point for the real answer at a later time and with less patience and goodwill.

[Danly]

^ Great answer.
Conversely, How about getting a louder PA

[JGriffin]

Conversely, How about getting a louder PA

I'll phone up all the local clubs immediately and tell them. I'm sure they'll run right out.

[Corey Y]

I already weighed in with my serious answer. I just wanted to add though, that as a musician, an engineer and an occasional guitar tech I've only ever seen ONE guitarist with a very loud amp who actually turned it up all the way and that was to the end of purposefully being unbearable. I was in a band years ago playing guitar and the other other guitarist had an opportunity to buy a very nice tube amp for not very much money. He passed because it was "only 50 watts". He used a 100 watt head and I never saw him turn it up past "3". He could have played out of a lower powered amp, turned up higher and gotten a better sound and still probably never come close to maxing out the volume on it.

Some guitarists take a long time to come around to that point of view, if ever.

[teleharmonium]

I already weighed in with my serious answer. I just wanted to add though, that as a musician, an engineer and an occasional guitar tech I've only ever seen ONE guitarist with a very loud amp who actually turned it up all the way and that was to the end of purposefully being unbearable. I was in a band years ago playing guitar and the other other guitarist had an opportunity to buy a very nice tube amp for not very much money. He passed because it was "only 50 watts". He used a 100 watt head and I never saw him turn it up past "3". He could have played out of a lower powered amp, turned up higher and gotten a better sound and still probably never come close to maxing out the volume on it.

Some guitarists take a long time to come around to that point of view, if ever.

Your observation is pertinent but misleading. Most tube amps get about as loud as they are going to get at around 3 to 4 on the volume pot (assuming a non master volume amp or the master is all the way up). You're mostly getting degrees of saturation by turning it up further. However, if you go down to 2 or below, the amp sounds lame.

I agree with you that many guitarists buy too much amp and that we need to edjimicate them, and that the guitarist you mentioned would have been better off cranking something small. OTOH I am a gigging guitarist and know many others, and there's a whole generation of players that always turn all the way up all the time. The guy I bought my old AC15 from was like that; it seems wacky to me as it does to you, however, I absolutely could not argue with the sonic results from his hamfist -> P90 LP special ->Klon -> 1960s AC15 twin 12 combo with old Fanes that could handle the abuse. (The guy was/is a gun toting pawn shop owner that schooled me on rock guitar in the couple of hours I was checking out the amp).

[Corey Y]

I can definitely appreciate some good old fashioned sonic excess, when used to good effect. Most guitarists just don't use it to good effect. There are a lot of guitarists out there who are hip to the joy of saturated power tubes. Being beaten over the head with loud bad tone is quite a terrible experience though.

I also have a 70s Sound City 120 that sounds like Thor's hammer when I play my down tuned LP custom into it cranked through a full stack with a good fuzz pedal. Sometimes a loud noise IS satisfying. It works best when in the context of a band where everyone is doing it though. One member drowning out the rest of the band is something else.

[Harry]

Attenuators cannot solve this problem. After about -6 or -8 db of attenuation, they disproportionately kill the high end. Also, old school rock guitarists (the kind that would use an Orange half stack) get part of their distortion from the speakers themselves. That's a big part of why turning down the amp fucks up the tone. If your sound is based on the power amp giving you extra sustain and harmonics, and the speakers adding even more harmonics, you are not going to be happy without it. You can't even play the melody lines the same way as you normally would, because the notes die out sooner. It's like wearing 2 condoms. And you've radically changed the gain structure of the rig, so that now your pedal settings that used to use for solos to send you into overdrive bliss, now just make you a little louder and too bright. Master volumes ? You've heard them, right ? They create preamp distortion only. That's OK if you're doing 80s style metal; otherwise, not so much. On a vintage style amp that doesn't have many gain stages, such as an 18 watt Marshall to which a post phase invertor master volume pot has been added, they can't even create much preamp distortion.

The difference in results that turning down involves is almost comparable to asking a trumpet player to use a mute and being surprised that they don't want to do that all the time.

There is nothing like a cranked tube amp interacting with speakers that are well mated to the amp. Nothing. Not even close. You're entertaining a delusion if you think turning it down shouldn't be a big deal to a guitarist that uses natural sounding distortion.

The guitarist needs a selection of amps and cabinets that can produce an acceptable version of his sound (from his perspective) at several volume levels. If he will go for open backed cabinets instead of closed, so much the better, but he might not want to give up the low end punch. He needs to find the least efficient speakers that work for him tonally, and match them up closely to the amp's output so that the speakers will distort but not blow. This kind of evolution of a rig takes lots of trial and error, ie time and money. I think you're always better off dealing with the real answer to the problem, difficult as it is, rather than trying other stuff first that isn't going to work and you'll only get to the starting point for the real answer at a later time and with less patience and goodwill.

This is a great answer...the 2 condoms part is right on the money.
this piece of gear will help
http://www.wildwestguitars.com/orange/2x12cab.jpg

and make sure it's pointed right at HIM not you..maybe even a little gobo?

good luck...and welcome to the board

[Gentleman Jim]

I'm all for sweet tone. I've owned an original Orange Overdrive 120 for almost 20 years now, and a 70's silver Bassman 100, (a great punk guitar amp), for about 14 years. Additionally, I've worked in clubs and/or toured, mostly in the punk/hard rock genres since 1986. I know loud guitar, I like loud guitar, and I understand loud guitar. It's an aesthetic choice that works in many situations.

On the other hand this sanctimonious talk about tone, and comparing power soaks to wearing two condoms is making me puke in my mouth a little bit. Yeah, I love the sound of power tubes distorting too, but get over yourself already, Yngwie. The original post related to volumes at rehearsal and playing clubs. If the band is playing clubs with PA's that can't compete with the guitar amp, then the problem is between the guitarist's ears.

Let's talk about how much that awesome tone translates to the room. Think about comb filtering due to reflected sound waves, phase issues from the amp being too loud in relation to the PA, weird room nodes, standing waves, on speaker axis versus off speaker axis, not to mention the perceptual differences to the guitar tone that a bass amp and a drum kit play. It's one thing to be super anal about guitar tone when recording; you can always adjust the mix later. It's a different matter altogether to have a one-size-fits-all attitude to stage volume.

As far as fixes are concerned, the first thing I would recommend is not having any guitar cab speakers below the guitarist's waist. That way he, (funny how these issues so rarely involve women), gets the full impact of the sound. Does the guitarist wear earplugs? If so, then demand that he doesn't. It's NOT ok for him to damage a room full of people's hearing with his oppressive volume while protecting his hearing from his own stupidity. Next up: do the AC/DC trick I saw on Saturday Night Live some years back - turn his cabinet around to face the back wall, then mic it. How about disconnecting 2 or even 3 of the speakers in his cab? Yes, it will sound different; see the third paragraph above and confirm that the performance isn't taking place in an anechoic chamber. Maybe do the trick where you remove half of the power tubes. Try making the impedance of the amp one half of the impedance of the cabinet.

Or just suck it the hell up and turn down already. The first victim of your 'killer' tone is the crowd's reaction to your band's set. Are you here to be part of a band, or are they just props to make you look good?

[ashcat_lt]

I never said the word Pod, but I wasn't joking.

[JGriffin]

I'm all for sweet tone. I've owned an original Orange Overdrive 120 for almost 20 years now, and a 70's silver Bassman 100, (a great punk guitar amp), for about 14 years. Additionally, I've worked in clubs and/or toured, mostly in the punk/hard rock genres since 1986. I know loud guitar, I like loud guitar, and I understand loud guitar. It's an aesthetic choice that works in many situations.

On the other hand this sanctimonious talk about tone, and comparing power soaks to wearing two condoms is making me puke in my mouth a little bit. Yeah, I love the sound of power tubes distorting too, but get over yourself already, Yngwie. The original post related to volumes at rehearsal and playing clubs. If the band is playing clubs with PA's that can't compete with the guitar amp, then the problem is between the guitarist's ears.

Let's talk about how much that awesome tone translates to the room. Think about comb filtering due to reflected sound waves, phase issues from the amp being too loud in relation to the PA, weird room nodes, standing waves, on speaker axis versus off speaker axis, not to mention the perceptual differences to the guitar tone that a bass amp and a drum kit play. It's one thing to be super anal about guitar tone when recording; you can always adjust the mix later. It's a different matter altogether to have a one-size-fits-all attitude to stage volume.

As far as fixes are concerned, the first thing I would recommend is not having any guitar cab speakers below the guitarist's waist. That way he, (funny how these issues so rarely involve women), gets the full impact of the sound. Does the guitarist wear earplugs? If so, then demand that he doesn't. It's NOT ok for him to damage a room full of people's hearing with his oppressive volume while protecting his hearing from his own stupidity. Next up: do the AC/DC trick I saw on Saturday Night Live some years back - turn his cabinet around to face the back wall, then mic it. How about disconnecting 2 or even 3 of the speakers in his cab? Yes, it will sound different; see the third paragraph above and confirm that the performance isn't taking place in an anechoic chamber. Maybe do the trick where you remove half of the power tubes. Try making the impedance of the amp one half of the impedance of the cabinet.

Or just suck it the hell up and turn down already. The first victim of your 'killer' tone is the crowd's reaction to your band's set. Are you here to be part of a band, or are they just props to make you look good?

amen x5.

[calaverasgrandes]

I know a lot of guitarists that got better "tone" switching from 100 watt marshalls hiwatts etc to 50 watt or 30 watt amps. You can also get a more loudish sound by going to an amp with a tube rectofier. Those old Ampeg SVT guitar amps are amazing! Also old fenders with tube rectos. They have a more strained sound when playing at moderate volume.
When I have played guitar in bands I was always trying to get a more sustainy feedbacky sound. I found that cutting the treble on my amp and boosting the mids got me there. That and a good overdrive/fuzz.
And tell them to save the dual full stack for ampitheatre shows! i hate that stuff both as a drummer, bassist, vocalist and soundguy. how they hell are we supposed to compete with two 100 watt tube amps pushing 16 12" speakers!
I even know one guy that used to run a QSC power amp off his slave out to get another couple hundred watts for a second stack!
Uh...if yer gonna do that I dont wanna hear a single complaint about not hearing vocals.

[Dan Phelps]

Maybe I'm an oddity, but as a full time guitar player, I don't enjoy playing through extremely loud amps. I don't think it's particularly conducive to being musical or sounding great. I have an amazing sounding 9/15 watt amp (depending on certain settings) that is still kinda loud for a lot of situations.

Yes, there's a sweet spot of tube poweramp goosh that sounds/feels magical and makes all the gain staging of your pedals work right... but I can get there with a Fender Pro Jr., in all of it's diminutive fury. I may have to be a little closer to the little guy for notes to feed back and stuff like that, but it's easy enough to just walk over there for a sec.

I'm actually wondering what situation anyone thinks they NEED 100 watts? What could you possibly need to compete with, volume wise, that would be as loud as a Hiwatt? Seriously. Like I said before, my 15 watt amp is loud enough to contend with most all drummers/live music situations where I am relying on my amp for stage volume.

I would suggest a less powerful amp so that he can achieve the same feel at a lower volume. As some one else mentioned, the best guitarists I have ever seen can rage without the wall-o-amp. Some guys just sound big regardless.

I should mention that I rarely play super heavy music, so I don't have much first hand experience with mechanics of that, but I do play a range of folkish, rockish, weird, experimental stuff that includes plenty of loudness. For the guitar tones I enjoy, lower wattage amps are the deal.

IMHO, live music is meant to be a blending/colliding of waves, and the best live bands have musicians who are sensitive to overall volume...i.e., if they are NOT supposed to be the loudest guy at any given moment, they play accordingly. When people are dialed into the sound of those waves smacking into each other, and what the other musicians are doing, they play at the appropriate volume for the most pleasing result for that situation.

[Rolsen]

I am sorry, but if you want that sweet power tube distortion and your amp is greater than 20 watts, you are going to be too damn loud in both the band room and on stage. As others have said, raise the amp and use the drummer as the lowest common denominator. Set volumes in accordance with the drums and not one db louder. I?ve been on an eternal tone quest, as most guitarists are, but I understand that ?performance tone? is always an approximation of your ?holy grail? tone. That Orange 50 will probably sound anemic turned down to 3, but I?m sure at 3, its loud as fuck and is competing nicely with the drummer. I use a new AC30 head, switched to low power (approx 22 watts), and would love to crank up the master, but I?m creating some serious carnage with the master volume at 30%. That is not the sweet spot of the amp, but the drunk at the bar, hearing it through the beat up 57, through the beat up mixer, through the beat up PA will not appreciate the nuances.