Upgrading Digi 003 Rack...

[jetaspirin]

Thanks for the advice, and the heads up w/ the 003/002 going away...

Is it possible to have the Apogee Ensemble work w/ a Digi 003 through the ADAT on a PC? I thought Apogee Ensemble only worked on MACs or is that just if it's standalone?

That is disconcerting that Protools 11 won't support 003...not sure about upgrading it to BLA...the upgrade does make sense, but no one wants to be stuck w/ a doorstop...!

[Bro Shark]

Black Lion told me a while back they were working on building their own interface.

All-in-one boxes bug me in theory. If I'm thinking of dropping 2K or more on digital gear, I'm leaning towards getting dedicated converters, something like an Aurora 16. Then you can build outboard & pres around it however you like. It seems like a wiser strategy for long term growth. The modular approach.

[Jeff White]

Get the best thing that you can afford, or save up until you can afford it. I know that it's less glamorous to not have gear now, but in the end you'll be very happy that you took the long road.

If I was running a PC-based setup I would either look into RME, or an Aurora 8 or 16 with the ADAT option (if you can swing it). Or...build upon the Digi-003 with an external 8-channel converter and save cash for something else down the line. As far as a DAW is concerned, Reaper is a totally awesome alternative to Pro Tools, and you can get a non-commercial license to start out with an upgrade once you start making cash. Good support as well from folks who give a shit about their product. This way once PT stops supporting the Digi-003, you can still use it. And you can simply have all waveforms start at zero, export them as WAVs, and take them anywhere to mix on anything. I still have folks do this to work at my place and it always works.

I have used the Focusrite Octopre MK2 (not the Dynamic version with compression) in a few remote sessions, though I do not own one. It's definitely a decent unit and easy to use. The preamps were getting used along-side of BAE 312s, a Sytek, and the Black Lion-modified preamps in my 828mk2. Though not as voodoo-like as the 312s and not as utilitarian as the Syteks, they did hold their own. Some tracks were keepers. The cool thing about the Octopre Dynamic is that it also provides another 8 analog outputs from your system via ADAT. So it's 8 in and 8 out. And it'll accept line-level inputs, so you aren't stuck with just the onboard preamps. I've seen them go for $500-$600 on ebay. Seems like a nice bit of expansion that isn't going to go away. And they support SMUX i/o, so once you upgrade to an interface that also does that, you'll have 96K ability via lightpipe. (I personally still record everything at 48kHz and always at 24-bit.) To be quite honest, I'll probably end up picking one of these up in 2012 over getting a new interface just to have 16 i/o when I need it.

Side note: As far as Avid no longer supporting the 002/003, this seems like the end of the bulk of Black Lion's upgrade business. They don't support any MOTU stuff after the original 828mk2/896HD either, so there seems to be a general phasing out of that side of the business. Their own multi-channel FW/USB/Thunderbolt interface seems to be the right way to move the business along, however we're talking about not only hardware here, but the software development of drivers to support it. Seems to be way more complicated.

However, all of those modified interfaces can still be used as master clocks and 8 channels of 24/48 into any interface with ADAT lightpipe.

Jeff

[Dakota]

Thanks for the advice, and the heads up w/ the 003/002 going away...

Is it possible to have the Apogee Ensemble work w/ a Digi 003 through the ADAT on a PC? I thought Apogee Ensemble only worked on MACs or is that just if it's standalone?

You're welcome.

Ensemble with 002/003 on PC - I know first hand this does work, but with a big caveat: to get at the Ensemble's settings and save its default boot up configuration, you have to scare up a friend with a mac to get at the Ensemble control software. But once you set your defaults the way you want them, it just boots that way even when connected to a PC.

[Dakota]

Their own multi-channel FW/USB/Thunderbolt interface seems to be the right way to move the business along, however we're talking about not only hardware here, but the software development of drivers to support it. Seems to be way more complicated.

Indeed! I'll be very interested to see what BLA brings with their own multi-channel interfaces. It'll probably arrive by the point that people with BLA 002/003's have to decide what's next.

[jetaspirin]

What I like to do is record at home to protools (I'm using LE) and then take the tracks to a pro studio for mixdown...I've spent a lot of time and money refining the front half of the recording studio, but not the outboard mixing gear...I've got good pre's API 3124+, great mics. Recorded an album on the 003 with an 002 hitched to it and it worked fine, but that was a couple of years ago.

Now I'm getting ready to record again and need to be compatible with Protools, but also want to get more channels, because the 002 has gone away...and there are myriad of different directions to go...always tricky navigating these technology waters...it's similar to buying a new laptop, always seems when you buy one, 6 months later, they're out-of-date and so much slower and clunkier than what is available currently...arrrgh...slow down tech developers, let us use this stuff for more than a year/project...

Perhaps I should dump my 003 on clist and get something altogether different...but I'm still stuck w/ my PC, firewire and Protools (which is sort of tied to the 003).

It's still confusing to me what the best direction to go is...what I want is as seemless a conversion to Protools HD...I once recorded on analog 2" tape and then spent a lot of time and money having them suck all that into protools, we had to play everything back in real time and have the protools HD rig sample everything...

[Jeff White]

I've been using a non-Pro Tools DAW (Digital Performer) since 2003. Most of my friends use Logic or Pro Tools. I've worked at studios with Pro Tools. I have home clients who take tracks that I record to studios running PTHD (and before that PT TDM), and I have a current client who recorded demos at home in Garageband that we've brought into Digital Performer to build up.

In my experience, the only way that anything is 100% compatible between DAWs, between Mac and PC, etc, is by exporting a tracking session as individual WAV files that all start at a common specific point in time (or Broadcast WAV files, which save the timecode). I always choose zero on the timeline as a common reference and export as 24/48, or however I've recorded the tracks.

Also, if you have a plug-in at home that you are using, that is LE, how will this translate to the HD plug-in? Won't you have to bounce through it and save both a wet and dry version of the track?

There's nothing wrong with Pro Tools. I just see your situation as one in which you could drop some cash on some non-Digi/Avid hardware while also using the 003, grab Reaper for much less than PT10, and be up in running in a day.

Jeff

[jetaspirin]

Thanks Jeff, I'll look into that path definitely...that's why I asked here, so I could get some good ideas for this problem as I'm not familiar with what everyone does and was trying to just do the simplest thing for the engineers that I work with that use PTHD.

I think this begs the question, would you want to freeze your system in time and just have it be 8-channels of Digi003 running PTLE and leave it at that, just as some people have Studer 1" 4-track machine from the 19xx....and that's all they got. The techology, by design can't evolve the way the software can these days.

And somebody might find a landmark record one day that was recorded on Digi 003 using PTLE and they'll be looking for that "sound" and they'll want to create that 2009-2010 sound and that will be retro...

But I doubt it, this is more like the Tascam stuff than the Studer stuff...and I guess the digital recording technology is not the message, it's just a medium and the medium is minimally intrusive and not colored enough like wire, wax, or 2" tape (that saturates nicely) recording to be "charming".

[Jeff White]

Like you said, it's really the sound of the front end. I'm a firm believer in hardware, though I understand that for the home studio plug-ins are the way to go. I think that "the sound" of the prosumer project studio isn't really something that can be defined as easy as the 4-track cassette or the 8-track reel-to-reel.

Again, as you mentioned, front end is the investment. Nice preamps, a few choice compressors for tracking, a nice digital and/or spring reverb, some decent amps and instruments...I'd much rather spend the cash on something that I can hold over something that I have to upgrade in order to use. Sometimes the software is worth it, though. Definitely NOT knocking plug-ins. However, right now I would much rather own a Nord Electro 2 or 3 over the Native Instruments Komplete stuff that I have to keep a separate computer/interface around to use. Just saying.

For your situation, if you are used to Pro Tools and like Pro Tools, maybe upgrading to 10 and using the Digi 003 with something like the before-mentioned Focusrite Octopre 2 (or Dynamic) is the way to go. You can wait on upgrading the interface until the time when the future is more clear, have 16 i/o, and have another 8 preamps in case you need them for live tracking. You can also check out Reaper for free I believe in the meantime.

http://www.reaper.fm/
http://www.focusrite.com/products/mic_p ... i_dynamic/

Jeff

[digitaldrummer]

I wish that BLA would build a unit like the MOTU 24 I/O, but of course with their better clock and converters and power refinements, etc.

I can get by with 16 I/Os (digi 002r and RME ADI8) but I'd be even happier with more. that would allow me to reserve a couple I/Os for outboard gear and not have to repatch things in and out all of the time (maybe I'm lazy, so what...).

the other thing that I don't really like is that the ADAT expansion only goes to 48KHz - that's the standard. and of course the 002r doesn't do SMUX. but even if it did, there is a latency difference between the pres and inputs in the 002r and those in the RME (across the ADAT). It may be better with Pro Tools 9 and later - I think it may adjust for this? not really sure. it still makes me a little nervous when recording a whole drum kit. sure its only a few samples, but what if it does make a subtle difference? and oh yeah, they do sound a little different. I'd rather it was going through the same type of converter for everything.

and of course going with a non-digi interface, I'd be concerned with the low-latency monitoring (which is only on digi hw so far) but other drivers (like RME or UA) may be good too?

so (if your listening BLA) I'd be all over a 16-24 I/O unit from BLA. Otherwise I may end up with an RME UFX or UA Apollo (if they ever get drivers for Windows) or just stick with the 002r.

Mike