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Post by Professor » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:07 pm

OK, I will respectfully disagree that power is held in fewer and fewer hands. I think that is a popular myth as well.
Historically speaking, more people own more of society now than say 100 or 200 years ago. At least as I understand it, when kings, dictators, tyrants, and oligarchies are running things, all that is the country belongs to the leader. Now this is part of both our democratic-republic system and our economic system, and while we are focusing on economics, it's hard to separate the two. But I see a society where Sam Walton or Bill Gates or Rockefeller or Carnegie can build themselves up from nothing to a level greater than that of kings or governments. And I believe that I can do it too. This is a system where musicians, actors and other artists can achieve fabulous wealth and influence. That means there will be some Jackos out there, but also some Bonos too.
And when the big companies go public, it means that I can own a part of them. I can't buy a piece of the local mom & pop music store, but I own 28.4277 shares of Guitar Center, and 11.3680 shares of Harman Industries. It's not a lot, but it's something.
subatomic pieces wrote:Right now, corporations are legally bound to do what is best for their shareholders. even if it's not in the best interest of society. that needs to change. I think that we need more accountability. "free" markets DO NOT regulate themselves. That's another popular myth. You can't cure human nature. But, if corporations are going to enjoy the rights and protections that a person does, then they should also be subject to accountability for their contribution (positive or negative) to society.
Yes, I agree with you thoroughly, but I am afraid of one problem here. It seems to me that the suggestion is to "legislate morality".
Now before you get horrified at that statement, consider it for a moment.
what is "best" for the society? Who would make such decisions?
We like to take the utopian view that only the 'good stuff' will be forced upon the businesses for our protection and their accountability. We envision the "free healthcare" myth, or the "free education" myth, but we don't consider the censorship potentials of considering what is "best" for society.
We like the idea of a "minimum wage" because we see a benefit to society.
But what if someone decides that a "maximum wage" would be a benefit? I don't want that limitation on me, or anyone else.
We like the idea of "free healthcare" but would we be equally in favor of "mandatory healthcare"? 'Time for every good citizen to take their soma'.
We don't like the idea of big corporations operating for the benefit of the owners. But what sort of weirdness might be considered "best" for society?

I guess I'm saying that we have to be really careful what we wish for - we just might get it.

-Jeremy

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Post by eeldip » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:04 pm

Professor wrote:It's not a straw man argument you twit...

I mean, I think I stopped using the, "yeah, well you're a doodoo-head" argument back in middle school.

-Jeremy
precious moment here. just noticed it. you did this on purpose right?

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Post by Professor » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:09 pm

eel, go ahead and chime in when you have something useful to contribute to the topic described in the subject line.

anything?

maybe an opinion on economics?

it's OK, we'll wait for a real zinger.

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Post by eeldip » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:13 pm

Professor wrote:eel, go ahead and chime in when you have something useful to contribute to the topic described in the subject line.

anything?

maybe an opinion on economics?

it's OK, we'll wait for a real zinger.
its cute that you are trying to take the high road.

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Post by Professor » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:39 pm

Yep, that's about all I expected.

Let me offer an actual real-world observation from just a few days ago.
I went into a local Sam Goody shop at our tiny local 'mall' because I'd heard they were closing down and marking things down by 30-50%. I was hoping to score a new PSP game, and previously they sold those (and everything else) at full-boat retail. No interesting games, but that wasn't the point.
There was another bottom-feeder that came in while I was browsing their jazz CDs, and he was looking to score a video game console at 30% below their typical price elsewhere. The girl behind the counter said that the local "mom & pop" video game store (across the hall and 5 doors down) came in and bought all the consoles at 30% off because that was below their cost.
The dude flipped out, crying about how that's illegal and immoral and all kinds of wrong. And apparently the guy is a DJ at a college radio station because he vowed to go rail against that evil video game store for buying up the consoles to resell them at a higher price. That was going to be his cheap console!!!!
Here is a small local company taking advantage of the demise of a big bad corporation, and the little local guy was royally pissed off.

So, if that article was correct that the Best Buy pricing was really lower than distributor pricing for the mom & pop stores, then it would have been wise for mom & pop to go buy the CDs at a loss for Best Buy, and then sell them for $9.99 when the corporate giant's sale was over and the price was back up to 12.99.
To me, at least, that's capitalism in action.
It's no different then going to Home Depot and buying a bunch of cheap lumber and then building a deck for someone, is it? No different than a restaurant owner going to a local super market to buy their meats and vegetables and then reselling them at their restaurant, right?
OK, maybe there's processing involved there.
How about a convenience store owner who buys a dozen bagels, some muffins, a few apples, and a few bananas from the local supermarket and then reselling them at double the price at his gas station convenience store? I see that all the time.
I see coffeehouses reselling muffins from Costco all the time.
Hell, I know the guys at my local (mom & pop) video store were going in and buying videos at Sam Goody and adding them to their rental inventory - that's who told me they were going out of business.

Capitalism allows mom & pop to do their thing. It also allows Sam Walton to do his thing. Mom & pop just need to focus their business savvy and skill, promote their strengths, and not sit back and rely on a captive audience.
And I believe in mom & pop! They can do it! They can do it without restrictive laws, or increased taxes, or more cost to me.

-Jeremy

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Post by lancebug » Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:26 pm

Capitalism at its root is not inherently evil, nor is socialism. FDR's new deal was a largely socialistic affair taking place in a capitalistic context. To my mind it had a pretty positive and long lasting effect on the arts and culture in the united states. Capitalism and socialism both probably work best when balanced by one another but flounder when one pushes the other out of the picture altogether. I'm not saying we have to loose our captalist identity, but that pure capitalism in inplausible over the long term. For instance, the logical conclusion to eliminating funding for arts and music education programs in schools is a weak national tradition in the arts and music over the long term. I think were gonna pay down the line (or already are) for our current trend of eliminating socialist doctrine from our governmental policy, much as socialist states have paid for their hardline stances. Thusly: Good cookies have salt in them. Good red meat suace has sugar in it. Good capitalist governments have some socialism in them and vice verse. All the bit about how successful those systems become just revolves around how competent those in power are and how transparent the systems are. Consider how un-transparent the various socialist and communist governments have been at their darkest moments. Then think about our own currently. Contemplate how uncertain the limits are of executive powers are right now and how optional are various civil liberties all seem to be. It really has little to do with capitalism.

I think its funny this thread is all posted under the catagory "People Skills"

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Post by Knights Who Say Neve » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:09 pm

Professor wrote:
We like the idea of a "minimum wage" because we see a benefit to society.
But what if someone decides that a "maximum wage" would be a benefit? I don't want that limitation on me, or anyone else.
We like the idea of "free healthcare" but would we be equally in favor of "mandatory healthcare"? 'Time for every good citizen to take their soma'.
Slippery slope fallacy.
"What you're saying is, unlike all the other writers, if it was really new, you'd know it was new when you heard it, and you'd love it. <b>That's a hell of an assumption</b>". -B. Marsalis

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Post by eeldip » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:30 pm

Knights Who Say Neve wrote:
Professor wrote:
We like the idea of a "minimum wage" because we see a benefit to society.
But what if someone decides that a "maximum wage" would be a benefit? I don't want that limitation on me, or anyone else.
We like the idea of "free healthcare" but would we be equally in favor of "mandatory healthcare"? 'Time for every good citizen to take their soma'.
Slippery slope fallacy.
dude watch out, you are gonna get called a twit for that!

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Post by ;ivlunsdystf » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:56 pm

Okay, back to Best Buy:

Does anybody remember when Best Buy had the best indie music inventory around? This was in the mid 1990s? Anyone? Maybe Minnesota was just a test market.

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Post by Professor » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Thanks lance, that's an excellent perspective on the economics side. Pure capitalism doesn't serve to protect the weakest in a society, and so a measured amount of socialism must be incorporated into the mix.
But back to Best Buy...
I don't see a problem, but some of you do.
I want to understand what you see, but I can't understand it when the only statements made are 'capitalism is broken' or 'the rich are getting richer'.

What is really wrong in your eyes with the Best Buy thing?

What is a suitable solution to this problem?

I know we have experts in rhetoric in the audience, how about somebody more knowledgeable than I in the realm of business, economics, marketing, indie labels, etc.?

-Jeremy

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Post by ;ivlunsdystf » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:21 pm

Professor wrote:
What is a suitable solution to this problem?

-Jeremy
I can't think of any solution. I think it's just the way things are.

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Post by Professor » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:27 pm

Well OK, that's fair enough.

But it's not how you guys want it to be - so it is a problem, right?

Maybe if we can define the problem better we can approach a solution. I figure that's reasonable enough, it's the first of 12 steps, right?

Trouble is, I don't see the problem, and I really want to try and understand what it is that some of you are seeing.

-J

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Post by Knights Who Say Neve » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:50 pm

OK here's the problem as I see it.

For most musicians and music lovers, it's good to have independent record stores. (More choice, less censorship, keeps money in the community, builds the local scene, small businesses more likely to help individual musicians w/consignment sales, and the list goes on.)

But, if Best Buy sells the most popular independent releases as loss leaders, it becomes more difficult for independents to stay in business.

If the independent goes out of business, music lovers and musicians are worse off.

Therefore, Things that make life hard on independent record stores=BAD.

Everyone get it now?

Solution- buy your shit at independent stores, and make it clear to anyone possible why you choose to do so. Market through independents and not chain stores like Best Buy. Write letters to Matador or whoever decided to do this. Pressure politicans into enforcing the anti-trust laws. Start requiring corporations to act in an ethical manner. Take a logic class at your local JC and start analysing the local newspaper. Read Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" here: http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
"What you're saying is, unlike all the other writers, if it was really new, you'd know it was new when you heard it, and you'd love it. <b>That's a hell of an assumption</b>". -B. Marsalis

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Post by Professor » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:32 pm

Knights Who Say Neve wrote:For most musicians and music lovers, it's good to have independent record stores. (More choice, less censorship, keeps money in the community, builds the local scene, small businesses more likely to help individual musicians w/consignment sales, and the list goes on.)
OK, I'll agree that musicians and 'music lovers' would prefer to have small independent stores.
I disagree that Best Buy "censors" their selections any more than some mom & pop stores might, but they may well have a more narrow selection. But assuming there is more choice and 'less censorship' then why are the music lovers going to Best Buy at all?
And I agree that we aren't likely to see a 'locals' or 'consignment' area at Best Buy or WalMart. Nor will we see a "used" section, though there are some chains which have these.
So we'll consider mom & pop's strengths to be selection and support of the locals.
I will however, have to disagree on the idea that all the money gets sucked out of the local economy. Some of it does, there's no question there. But when a store that size employs 120 people, and pays taxes on 100x more land than mom & pop, and pays utilities and hires a cleaning service, and advertises in the local paper, and donates stuff to the local schools, then I'm going to have to say that they are putting a lot of money 'back into the community'. Not all of it, and maybe not as much as mom & pop.
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:But, if Best Buy sells the most popular independent releases as loss leaders, it becomes more difficult for independents to stay in business.
I can see where it's easy to make that call, but I think that's going to be in cases where mom & pop aren't playing their strengths.
If mom & pop are really more diversified, and BBY or WMT are really only selling the most popular of the indies, then fine, mom & pop lose out on that batch of sales because their customers have more loyalty to their wallets. Even so, there is now a whole new crop of people hearing the most popular indies, and then they'll going looking for the back-catalog, and mom & pop could see a boost in those areas later if they follow up properly.
And there's still so much that BBY won't have in stock aside from indies. Consider classical, jazz, world music, etc. No, these have never been hot sellers, but mom & pop have to play up their strength of diversity.

As for the economics, well if the sale price is really a loss-leader, and BBY is really taking a hit on those and selling them below mom & pop's price, then mom & pop should pick up a few copies and sell them cheaper than BBY's non-sale price after the sale is over. Hell, they could get in there with their reseller tax ID number and not even pay sales tax on the purchase. This happens all the time. How many times have you seen a grocery store flyer that shows a sale price but says "limit 2 per customer" or "no dealers please"?
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:If the independent goes out of business, music lovers and musicians are worse off.
Therefore, Things that make life hard on independent record stores=BAD.
Well, just saying it doesn't make it so - no matter how hard you believe it.
I happen to agree with you, but if you're gonna call me on rhetoric, I gotta be fair here.
Once upon a time, music lovers might be worse off without their independents, but today so much is traded on the internet, that we would really need to consider the role of the websites and the direct selling by bands and labels as part of the challenge to mom & pop.
And while things that make business tougher on mom & pop also have a funny way of making some mom & pops tougher at business. Musicians too for that matter. If mom & pop can't find their strengths, focus their energy there, and retain their market, then it's truly sad and unfortunate for mom, pop, and their customers as well. But the competition could encourage them to fight a little harder, work a little smarter, and keep their business from stagnating.
Similarly, the local musicians might suddenly find there isn't a local shop where they can stick a pile of CDs to watch them sell off at the staggering rates they're known to. But I always encourage musicians I work with to consider alternatives to the record store. Why try to sell your un-advertised, unknown album in a store where it surrounded by thousands of competitors. But go to other local businesses and ask them to play your CD on their system and stack a few at the counter, and guerilla marketing might just be more successful. There will probably only be a handful of competitve discs at the local skate shop or coffeehouse, or thrift store.
No, I'm fully aware that isn't a suitable replacement for a lost mom & pop, but my point is that adversity breed creativity. At least it used to.
Knights Who Say Neve wrote:Solution- buy your shit at independent stores, and make it clear to anyone possible why you choose to do so. Market through independents and not chain stores like Best Buy. Write letters to Matador or whoever decided to do this. Pressure politicans into enforcing the anti-trust laws. Start requiring corporations to act in an ethical manner. Take a logic class at your local JC and start analysing the local newspaper. Read Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" here: http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
Finally, a potential solution, albeit one that should be really obvious.
Somewhere back in the nether pages of this thread someone suggested that 'voting with your wallet' is a myth. I disagree, because I've seen it in action.
Some 5 or 6 years ago, the citizens of Saratoga Springs, NY didn't want a Starbucks coffee shop opening in their town. It did, of course, because the local couple who paid the money for the franchise wanted to exercise their free-market rights. Of course, then the citizens voted with their wallets and never showed up. No boycots or pickets or lawsuits or acts of congress, just good ol' fashion word of mouth telling their friends not to go there. The shop closed.
Of course, the humorous anecdote is that when it was replaced by a Peaberry's coffeehouse, the customers charged through the door.
But it really can happen.
I think I mentioned a Sam Goody closing here by me. The little local record shop is still doing fine, the Hastings (another chain) is doing fine, hell, there's even a WalMart in town. And while the local record shop and local book/music store are still there, Sam Goody is out, and the local videogame store bought their console inventory, and the local video store is buying movies to rent. And nobody went to Sam Goody because they had a lousy selection and high prices.

Now as for getting politicians and lawyers involved, I think that's a little extreme, but that's your opinion. Trying to argue anti-trust against any company involved in selling music is a little ambitious. I mean any one of them will point at their other products and say "we sell more than just music" and they'll point to some other company and say "they sell more music than we do". With BBY, WMT, and then all the other retailers large and small, and then Amazon or iTunes or whatever, that's just not going to happen. And I'd argue that it shouldn't for exactly the reason that there is no monopoly on music retailing.

But this is a great start. Any other suggestions beyond voting with your wallet or convincing congressmen to file anti-trust suits against BBY?

-Jeremy

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Post by spankenstein » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:51 pm

Tatertot wrote:Okay, back to Best Buy:

Does anybody remember when Best Buy had the best indie music inventory around? This was in the mid 1990s? Anyone? Maybe Minnesota was just a test market.
I remember when they mentioned Screeching Weasel in their ads. So yeah... I found so many things at Best Buy in the 90's that were awesome. The local "mom'n pop" was and is still firmly targetting the hair metal crowd.

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