interesting debate fletcher/albini

[heylow]

Man, the thing of it for me is.....I just can't possibly EVER AGAIN in my life, so long as I may live, drunk, sober, blue, green or on the run for killing prostitutes in 3 states...waste another single moment of of sensory perception, either listening to or reading about any debate whose scope entails analog vs. digital.

It's my opinion that this subject is one where everybody gives such a f*&k and, YET.....it matters SO little. You will never reclaim the time....TURN AWAY! TURN AWAY!

Now back to these prostitutes.....



heylow

[rhythm ranch]

What he said!

BTW Heylow, my copy of the new album just arrived and KICKS ASS!

[joel hamilton]

Man, the thing of it for me is.....I just can't possibly EVER AGAIN in my life, so long as I may live, drunk, sober, blue, green or on the run for killing prostitutes in 3 states...waste another single moment of of sensory perception, either listening to or reading about any debate whose scope entails analog vs. digital.

It's my opinion that this subject is one where everybody gives such a f*&k and, YET.....it matters SO little. You will never reclaim the time....TURN AWAY! TURN AWAY!

Now back to these prostitutes.....



heylow

TOTALLY. YOU READ IT, now you cant -UN READ IT!!!!

[Cyan421]

I would say its analog vs. digital, because as albini says he wont even touch it, he is never going to use a pro tools rig so why does he care if it sounds worse or better?

And i think it does matter a lot because they are trying to find a good way to store recorded works for the future, this is something the whole industry should be concerned with.

[heylow]

What he said!

BTW Heylow, my copy of the new album just arrived and KICKS ASS!

Thanks man! Glad you got it ok and I'm glad you're diggin' it. We worked hard on it and Joel really helped to take it all the way.


heylow

[heylow]

And i think it does matter a lot because they are trying to find a good way to store recorded works for the future, this is something the whole industry should be concerned with.

Yeah, I can see that angle and, granted, I stopped reading it after a few pages but I didn't see anything related to any new or even honest take on the future of the subject that wasn't simply an extension of personal preference.

All I know is...better storage medium on the horizon or not, the machine will roll on and people will still be making records and I, for one, will never again argue that which in unarguable.


heylow

[joel hamilton]

Whatever.
A good pal of mine is on the board at AES that deals with archival issues.

Things that are critical get backed up more than once. He is in the process of RE-archiving a bunch of TAPES from the library of congress.

My great grandmother was one of, if not THE first woman to have a syndicated radio show on NBC, and all of her shows were on tape, and they have all now been xfer'd to digital. This is for NBC. If they find out that the next generation of digital playback devices are not compatible with PCM, they will RE-archive to the current format. Simple as that. Plenty of old tapes have gone to DAT, then 5 years later to CDR, the 3 years after that went to DVD as data at higher resolution.

Nothing to see here...

[trashy]

In the end - when jesus returns or the sun swallows us up or we kill the planet ourselves - all of that shit will be lost. I promise. It won't matter whether it was stored on tape or vinyl or wax cylinder. You'll be dead, your children will be dead, and no one will give a fuck about Coltrane sessions from 1955.

That's the kind of morning it has been.

[Knights Who Say Neve]

I think that anything they have to say on the subject is just as valid as anyone else on a public, internet message board. No more, no less.

Umm, you think that all opinions are of equal value?

I don't think you meant to say that. I hope not...

[JES]

I think he's saying that expertise doesn't make you right. i live in a world of PhDs, who are credentialled out their hindquarters and have all sorts of expertise, and they are still sometimes -gasp- wrong! about their subjects.

I always hated the genuflection aspect of online music discussions. Famous people are not automatically right on something because they say so. That's not thought or debate, it's just submission to authority. Sure, that's what we teach in school, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

I agree with Trashy about the relevance of the preservation thing, but if I were advising an archive about preservation of audio, magnetic tape -- or better, analog disc -- is hard to beat. In fact, profesional archivists are frightened by digital storage (there's a lot written on the subject) and I can hardly blame them. What that has to do with what medium my band should use to make their next album, I have no idea.

Best,
--JES

[Fletcher]

Hi guys... Mr. Irrelevant here...

The purpose of this test is not some kind of "analog / digital" debate... so for the 18 Tape Op'ers playing along at home, let me clear that up front.

A few years ago a fellow by the name of "Mixerman" stated that he felt Pro Tools "HD" dumped like 6db from the bottom of his audio at like 50-60Hz. Well this was a bold claim, and a not really measurable claim, which has been batted around the internet everywhere from the DUC to the various ProSoundWeb forums and even the TOMB. A guy by the name of Ron Steele from Chicago decided to try to put this to rest... one way or the other... and asked me and Brad [the administrators of the R/E/P section of the PSW site] if he could post a thread concerning a test he wanted to do.

We said sure... knock yourself out.

So that's all that's happening. Seeing as this is going down in Chicago, Ron called Steve and asked him if he'd like to participate... Gannon from DigiDesign chimed in that he wanted to attend, and I chimed in that I wanted to hear how a RADAR system would fair in a similar comparison... and so it goes.

We are developing the "methodology" for this listening test [which in the scheme of things will prove pretty much nothing], but will serve to confirm or not confirm "Mixerman"'s original premise that P-T causes the music to suffer a severe loss of balls.

I'm damn near positive that the -6db @ 50Hz claim is utter bullshit... but do think we're going to hear a severe lack of balls returning from the P-T HD format. The fact that there will be a dude from Digi there, as well as the Mr. Albini [who is supplying the analog master for the comparison], as well as the CRC technical staff should show this to be a pretty fair/honest comparison.

Will this mean the end of P-T as we know it? Hell no. Will it mean that Mr. Albini will say "oooo, I have to buy me a _______ system right away"? Hell no. Will it mean that the controversy surrounding MM's original statement will go away? Nope, won't do that either. What it will do is give us a hobby for an afternoon and an opportunity for me to either kick Albini's ass at a poker table, or for him to kick my ass at a poker table... not a whole lot more, and certainly nothing less.

Oh... and "Soundguy"... after having listened to some of the "RIVA" stuff you had posted on your site, I'd like to thank you for not liking my work... if you did like the stuff I do then I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about a potential lack of skill.

[joel hamilton]

Hi guys... Mr. Irrelevant here...

The purpose of this test is not some kind of "analog / digital" debate... so for the 18 Tape Op'ers playing along at home, let me clear that up front.

A few years ago a fellow by the name of "Mixerman" stated that he felt Pro Tools "HD" dumped like 6db from the bottom of his audio at like 50-60Hz. Well this was a bold claim, and a not really measurable claim, which has been batted around the internet everywhere from the DUC to the various ProSoundWeb forums and even the TOMB. A guy by the name of Ron Steele from Chicago decided to try to put this to rest... one way or the other... and asked me and Brad [the administrators of the R/E/P section of the PSW site] if he could post a thread concerning a test he wanted to do.

We said sure... knock yourself out.

So that's all that's happening. Seeing as this is going down in Chicago, Ron called Steve and asked him if he'd like to participate... Gannon from DigiDesign chimed in that he wanted to attend, and I chimed in that I wanted to hear how a RADAR system would fair in a similar comparison... and so it goes.

We are developing the "methodology" for this listening test [which in the scheme of things will prove pretty much nothing], but will serve to confirm or not confirm "Mixerman"'s original premise that P-T causes the music to suffer a severe loss of balls.

I'm damn near positive that the -6db @ 50Hz claim is utter bullshit... but do think we're going to hear a severe lack of balls returning from the P-T HD format. The fact that there will be a dude from Digi there, as well as the Mr. Albini [who is supplying the analog master for the comparison], as well as the CRC technical staff should show this to be a pretty fair/honest comparison.

Will this mean the end of P-T as we know it? Hell no. Will it mean that Mr. Albini will say "oooo, I have to buy me a _______ system right away"? Hell no. Will it mean that the controversy surrounding MM's original statement will go away? Nope, won't do that either. What it will do is give us a hobby for an afternoon and an opportunity for me to either kick Albini's ass at a poker table, or for him to kick my ass at a poker table... not a whole lot more, and certainly nothing less.

Oh... and "Soundguy"... after having listened to some of the "RIVA" stuff you had posted on your site, I'd like to thank you for not liking my work... if you did like the stuff I do then I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about a potential lack of skill.

IMHO, the premise that brought this experiment about is almost McCarthy esque, in that the accusation is damning enough as to damage the popular opinion even without actual facts being presented.

With a flawed premise, aany information ained by this experiment will almost be irrelevant, as the respected individuals involved even acknowledge the need for a test at all... This sends a message to those who may not use the two formats on a daily basis that "protools MIGHT be fucking up their recordings."

Fletcher, people listen to you. You have a lot of experience in this game. Why would this be a subject that even interests you?

BTW, Roscoe is great and I LOVE that quote from him you have as your signature.
My Partner, Tony Maimone has made a bunch of records with him, and that is really funny....

[joelpatterson]

(I would hope that it just ends up with everybody screaming at each other.)

[Fletcher]

IMHO, the premise that brought this experiment about is almost McCarthy esque, in that the accusation is damning enough as to damage the popular opinion even without actual facts being presented.

That is not the interpretation I've seen... what I've seen is some people who have taken the Pepsi challenge and agreed with the statement, some who have not taken the Pepsi challenge and agreed with the statement, others who have not taken the Pepsi challenge who vehemently challenge the statement... the idea here is to get some folk in a room who have some kind of credibility [I'm talking Albini, not me] and run the A/B - A/B/C one more time to hear if anyone hears anything. There is nothing "McCarthy-esque" about anything... while there is a premise [presupposition], you must have a presupposition for any experiment... now if you run a fair and even experiment you will either prove that presupposition or disprove that presupposition.

This in not a witch hunt by any stretch of the imagination. The key is in making the testing field as level as possible... which is what we will endeavor to do. There is a guy from Digi Design involved in the formulation of the methodology... how much more level could we get this playing field? I certainly hope the answer to that question is "none more level".

With a flawed premise, aany information ained by this experiment will almost be irrelevant, as the respected individuals involved even acknowledge the need for a test at all... This sends a message to those who may not use the two formats on a daily basis that "protools MIGHT be fucking up their recordings."

Where is the flaw in the premise?

Fletcher, people listen to you. You have a lot of experience in this game. Why would this be a subject that even interests you?

All audio related subjects interest me... I don't use P-T for a myriad of reasons [one of which, the major one, is that I don't like the way it sounds] but that's just one old asshole in a see of thousands... there are thousands of people all over the world making music with Pro-Tools systems each and every day. There is not a damn thing I can say that will stop that. This is an excercize in "why not"... OK, so I have to go to Chicago and play some poker when the other stuff is done... but dammit... a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

BTW, Roscoe is great and I LOVE that quote from him you have as your signature.
My Partner, Tony Maimone has made a bunch of records with him, and that is really funny....

He's got a million great quotes like that... talented man that Rosce

(I would hope that it just ends up with everybody screaming at each other.)

Only if someone comes up with 5 aces at the poker game... other than that it's purely academic. While there is a presuppostion, I know I won't mind being wrong, I hope Gannon from Digi doesn't mind it if their system doesn't prove me wrong... and from what I can gather, Steve doesn't give a rat's ass either way.

[GrimmBrotherScott]

On a more serious and important note, what kind of poker do you guys usually play (Hold 'em, stud, etc...), what's the buy in and how do I get in on the next game?