What happened to "getting it right the first time"

[vernier]

I record straight thru, no edits, so stopping tape. Here's a recent folk thing that shows what I'm talkin' about.

http://users.adelphia.net/~bfriend97/FourWallsStorm.mp3

[GrimmBrotherScott]

It's funny that this is even a discussion. Every single person commenting on this has comp'd vocals a billion times. It is EXACTLY the same as cutting and pasting a performance. Period.

If you haven't comp'd vocals, you have punched in. It's the EXACT same thing, and I defy anyone to explain to me how it is different.

[Karlos the Jackal]

I love digital recording. When I was using a 4-track cassette recorder, it was my goal to never have to play a song more than once. Now my goal is to never have to play a song all the way through at all. It's awesome.

--K

[soundguy]

It's funny that this is even a discussion. Every single person commenting on this has comp'd vocals a billion times. It is EXACTLY the same as cutting and pasting a performance. Period.

If you haven't comp'd vocals, you have punched in. It's the EXACT same thing, and I defy anyone to explain to me how it is different.

are you kidding?

the whole "advantage" of nonlinear recording is the ability to not commit to anything, ever. When you can record three hundred takes, there's absolutely no pressure to get it right. none. No pressure to get it right the first time, no pressure to get it right the three hundreth time.

With linear systems, you have finite space and worse, when you are punching in, now not only does the performer have to perfectly get it right, but there is operator error to account for with the head gap on the punch out in tight spaces. The degree of anxiety present in the punch out will vary from machine to machine, each is different. the tension, anxiety and critical nature of the vibe in the air that is present on a punch in with a linear system has positively no business being present when going through the identical process on a non linear system. As a result, you get, at the very least, the foundation for completely and totally different performances. Some people respond to that pressure in a horrible self destructive way and some people cant perform to their best unless they are in its presence. This isnt a which one's better, but they sure as shit are totally different arenas. I'd let a 15 year old punch in just about anything on a non linear system, but am seeking out someone with a lot of time on a given deck to punch critical material.

There is at least one person on posting on this board who has never comped vocal performances.

dave

[stinkpot]

I remember on the first day my band recording the big LP at a big studio with a big producer and all that good stuff walking into the control room after first drum takes and seeing the engineer and producer smiling really big. When asked why, they both said it was so nice to work with a band that could actually play their songs all the way through without major fuck-ups. I was shocked because these were guys that have worked on some really huge records. I don't get it, we were a pretty good band, had worked fairly hard and prepared - is that really unusual now? Why be in a band if you're not going to practice? Why get on stage if you can't make it through your songs? Why go into a studio and copy and paste your way through a session and then not be able to play the stuff live?

I sound old, and I'm not really that old, I just don't get it. Practice, play shows, THEN record your shit. I don't really see any other way to do it if want to call yourself a musician.

I'm tired of lazy fuckers. Period.

[joeysimms]

I'm tired of lazy fuckers. Period.

Whirred.

[brian beattie]

When I only did multitrack work I was getting bored and dispirited. When I started doing live to 2 track I got a big woody for recording again. Now, I can comp and edit and fly parts around when I multitrack and do studio wizardry with great glee, because I know I'll do it on the fly with some badass musicians soon, live to tape. The techniques are just different, but doing both has saved me from taking offense to either school's defenders of the spark. Making a great recording is an amazing achievement either way.
brian

[GrimmBrotherScott]

It's funny that this is even a discussion. Every single person commenting on this has comp'd vocals a billion times. It is EXACTLY the same as cutting and pasting a performance. Period.

If you haven't comp'd vocals, you have punched in. It's the EXACT same thing, and I defy anyone to explain to me how it is different.

are you kidding?

the whole "advantage" of nonlinear recording is the ability to not commit to anything, ever. When you can record three hundred takes, there's absolutely no pressure to get it right. none. No pressure to get it right the first time, no pressure to get it right the three hundreth time.

With linear systems, you have finite space and worse, when you are punching in, now not only does the performer have to perfectly get it right, but there is operator error to account for with the head gap on the punch out in tight spaces. The degree of anxiety present in the punch out will vary from machine to machine, each is different. the tension, anxiety and critical nature of the vibe in the air that is present on a punch in with a linear system has positively no business being present when going through the identical process on a non linear system. As a result, you get, at the very least, the foundation for completely and totally different performances. Some people respond to that pressure in a horrible self destructive way and some people cant perform to their best unless they are in its presence. This isnt a which one's better, but they sure as shit are totally different arenas. I'd let a 15 year old punch in just about anything on a non linear system, but am seeking out someone with a lot of time on a given deck to punch critical material.

There is at least one person on posting on this board who has never comped vocal performances.

dave

Everything you mentioned is frankly a bunch of subjective bullshit Dave. You are smarter than that. How about you explain to me what is different between 5 vocal takes cut to tape that are later comp'd and 5 vocal takes that are comp'd via Pro Tools and later comp'd? You know EXACTLY what I am saying. Once you make the decison to comp at all, you have crossed the line from "purist".

[brian beattie]

I understand what exactly dave is saying. Punching and comping AREN'T the same. And some folks become lazy when the pressures not on. I don't think either of you wish to exclusively use the other's techniques. Obviously, there's only one way to settle this. A DUEL with BLUNT CEREAL SPOONS on a DECREPIT URBAN BASKETBALL COURT at MIDNIGHT in your UNDERPANTS with FACE PAINT!!!!!!
brian

[chris harris]

yeah... I think that it's ridiculous to rule out ANY technique that may be able to provide the client what they want. If a client asked me to give them a very immediate sounding record, and wanted no effects or processing, and wanted to play it live in the studio, and didn't want to fuss with a long mix session, I wouldn't hesitate to mix 'em live to 2-track.

But, the truth is (and I'm sure that this is a source of misery for many), very few clients want that.

So, I enjoy it when I do get a brilliant musician that I can make a great record for with very little effort. But, I also make sure that I've got the skills, gear, and attitude to still make a good recording for the other 90% of bands/artists who want to record.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

my 1.67 cents....i hate hate hate having to edit performances...i.e. moving stuff around to make it sound in the pocket. i think it's soul destroying and never ever sounds as good as just playing it well in the first place.

but i don't mind comping takes together at all. i do it all the time, and it's never struck me as 'cheating'. on a recent project i recorded, the guitar player was pretty damn brilliant, he was an older guy, you could tell he'd been playing forever, he had his tone together, didn't play any weedly-weedly bullshit, and came up with great stuff off the top of his head. for all the songs, we'd just roll the tune and let him go. and have him do a couple or three takes. they trusted me to pick 'the good stuff' out of those takes, and i did.

to me, that approach leaves MORE room for the magic to happen, and that's what i like to catch if i can.

when i'm recording my band i routinely will have my singer do extra passes on all her guitar tracks, and lots of good has come from that....it'll feedback in some cool way, or she'll accidentally hit some open string that totally adds to the vibe, anything really. so i mean....would it be 'better' to use the one take of rhythm guitar that was performed well front to back, or to use most of that take, but cutting in some parts from another take that happened to be accidentally awesome? i go with the latter every time.

[joelpatterson]

Well, the whole point of anyone "doing music" is the visceral, exciting nature of live performance. Recording is a big fraud that tries to replicate that.

But I believe there are all kinds of levels of fraudulence, and I fully expect St. Peter at the Golden Gate to quiz me on exactly what my attitude was, how much it pained me to have to resort to trickery. Very, very painful, Pete.

[JES]

And here I was on the other thread thinking I was kidding about multiple takes and multitracking. Really, what's the problem here? Are you worried that the recording with cut and paste is some kind of con job, so that the lsitener won't know how well or poorly the musicians actually played? As far as I can tell, that's the whole point of multitrack studio recording. You make the music sound as good as possible.

--JES

[apropos of nothing]

Well, the whole point of anyone "doing music" is the visceral, exciting nature of live performance. Recording is a big fraud that tries to replicate that..

Sez you.

How pure you wanna go? If you use an amplifier, you've created electronic music. Haha sux to be you.

[mjau]

As far as I can tell, that's the whole point of multitrack studio recording. You make the music sound as good as possible.

--JES

Yup, great point. What he said.