stupid question regarding EH12AY7 or any other outboard pre

[nlmd311]

Hi guys,
So I finally got back in town and couldn't wait to jump in and get back to recording. I haven't been able to record a single thing for 3 months and have just been agitated. I ordered an Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 pre-amp just before I left and it arrived shortly after I left. It's been 3 months and I am just now getting to use the thing. My stupid question is:
What would be the best scenario for connecting this pre or any other outboard mic pre-amp for that matter? This is my first and am finding what I thought I knew to maybe be a little out of wack.
I have a MOTU 828mkII and a Soundtracs FM Series mixer which I run into it. The best situation would be to run an XLR-TRS (XLR for the output of the EH and the TRS for the In of the 828) into the balanced In's of the MOTU, right?
**I have been reading all the posts regarding these and will say I know that the 1/4" out is a buffered out for the use of monitoring, etc. and not the "Output" of the pre-amp itself.
I have been playing with it for most of the day today and I swear I either must be doing something wrong, or I am a complete fool. I can almost swear I don't hear a difference between the pre's in the Soundtracs vs. the EH. Thought I did yesterday, but today is a different story (pretty sure it was a matter of the mics being moved in between takes yesterday).
Thanks for any input you guys might be able to throw at me.
I apologize for adding another EH12AY7 topic in the forum.

-Darrill

**edit** edited so it didn't run on so much.

[nlmd311]

Sorry for the double post,
I also was curious to know if anyone who owns one of the 12AY7 pre's could tell me if your Power LED turns off when Phantom power is turned on. There is no mention of this in the manual and I found it a little odd that it says "POWER LED ? This blue LED should glow brightly when the correct 12-volt /1 Amp AC power is applied, signaling that all operational voltages are satisfactory." Does this mean that since the light on the one I have goes off that the proper voltage is not flowing? It is nice and bright until the Phantom power is turned on and then at that second it turns off. ?

Thanks again

-Darrill

[KennyLusk]

The "manual" doesn't really say much at all IMO. It's kind of just a piece of Xerox'd paper,LOL.

Yes, it's normal that the power light goes out when you engage the phantom power. No worries.

As far as not noticing a difference in sound between the EHX and your motu pre's...well...I wouldn't know what to say about that. If that's what you hear then that's what you hear.

[nlmd311]

Thanks KennyLusk,
Yeah, the manual is kind of basic, but it appears to be a pretty nicely, and simply laid out little box. Just wanted to make sure the light was supposed to go off.

Regarding the sound:
I didn't mean the comparison between the MOTU pre's though, I was comparing it to the pre's in my Soundtracs. I am getting ready to dive back in today and see what's up.
I know it is all a matter of opinion regarding the sonic differences between any source... I guess mainly I was trying to be sure I was connecting this correctly in order to be sure that I am hearing the proper image.

Thanks

-Darrill

[I'm Painting Again]

Darrill..the real test is to tack a whole tune with each one THEN compare..do this (same tune on each pre, pick a dense arrangement for best results) and see if you notice a difference in the result of the two whole songs..once you do that and there is no difference then you know its redundant for you to own..it would be better to somehow use the exact same performance in the test I'm not sure there is a easy way to do that though..

[darjama]

what mics & sources are you testing with? Personally I find the difference between the 12ay7 and my cheap mixer (a small yamaha) pretty significant. But I'd think that the difference would be less obvious on some sources. Try an acoustic instrument, you should hear a difference there.

[nlmd311]

Thanks B.O.B.,
I was actually just doing that.
I think I found what the big(gest) issue was though. One of the tubes, the 12AU7 to be exact wasn't fully seated. I took the little guard rail off to be sure the tubes were making full contact and sure enough that one was not. Once I placed it in correctly, and gave it another test things were quite different. Picked up a significant amount of gain, I am actually able to hear a change now, and possibly the most significant, the POWER LED doesn't go out when the phantom power is turned on. Right now I have the unit on and the Phantom on and both LED's are glowing brightly. KennyLusk, you might want to check to be sure the tubes in yours are fully connected if the light on yours is going on when phantom is turned on. You might find an even more noticeable difference. ? Maybe not.
Just wanted to mention this in the case someone may have an issue like this in the future.
That said, it is a pretty cool tool. Still find it absurd as to how close I think the pre's in the Soundtracs sound when compared to the 12AY7. The 12AY7 has a slightly more "open" character compared to the Soundtracs allowing for some nice attack sounds.
Makes the telecaster I was using jump out just that bit more, and sound even that much more like a tele without sounding annoyingly piercing.
Back to playing!

Thanks again

-Darrill

[nlmd311]

what mics & sources are you testing with? Personally I find the difference between the 12ay7 and my cheap mixer (a small yamaha) pretty significant. But I'd think that the difference would be less obvious on some sources. Try an acoustic instrument, you should hear a difference there.

Hey darjama,
Mainly I am using a 60's reissue Telecaster through a Vox Pathfinder 15R for the comparisons right now.
I have used everything from the pair of Tape Op Ribbons, to an SM57, Oktava ML-52-02, Oktava MK-319, matched pair of MXL 603s's and am getting ready to set up a test with the Oktava MKL2500. The Tape Op Ribbons show a greater amount of "detail" in the image as compared to the Oktava which sounds pretty much the same. That is mostly so far on just the guitar though, so we will see as I get more involved.
I found the most significant difference with the comparisons using the MK-319.
I was also using some small hand percussion and noise-makers. I am in a small apartment and need to wait for the rest of the building to wake up and get out before I can start banging or playing a iittle less cautiously.
I am going to give some acoustic stuff a try soon too now that I feel more comfortable with know that the tube was what was causing a big deal of my problem. Wish I had my acoustic guitar up here...

Thanks

-Darrill

[luckybastard]

for 900 and if you got the time to put together a kit, you can get 4 c84 channels from seventh circle audio. they are supposed to be based on the millenia hv-3 pres.

[KennyLusk]

Thanks B.O.B.,
I was actually just doing that.
I think I found what the big(gest) issue was though. One of the tubes, the 12AU7 to be exact wasn't fully seated. I took the little guard rail off to be sure the tubes were making full contact and sure enough that one was not. Once I placed it in correctly, and gave it another test things were quite different. Picked up a significant amount of gain, I am actually able to hear a change now, and possibly the most significant, the POWER LED doesn't go out when the phantom power is turned on. Right now I have the unit on and the Phantom on and both LED's are glowing brightly. KennyLusk, you might want to check to be sure the tubes in yours are fully connected if the light on yours is going on when phantom is turned on. You might find an even more noticeable difference. ? Maybe not.
Just wanted to mention this in the case someone may have an issue like this in the future.
That said, it is a pretty cool tool. Still find it absurd as to how close I think the pre's in the Soundtracs sound when compared to the 12AY7. The 12AY7 has a slightly more "open" character compared to the Soundtracs allowing for some nice attack sounds.
Makes the telecaster I was using jump out just that bit more, and sound even that much more like a tele without sounding annoyingly piercing.
Back to playing!

Thanks again

-Darrill

Darrill,

Glad to hear you're making progress. In my case there have been (and still are) grounding issues with my 12AY7 that are totally unrelated to the tubes. I can say also that the tube sockets are very poorly mounted to the PCB. While the circuit design is clever and the sound is amazing, the actual quality of craftmanship on these things just sucks IMO. I'm hopeful that will change. As I've mentioned before, this is the second unit I've had where grounding is an issue. Heck, I get grounding hum even when the phantom power is NOT engaged and there's no mic even plugged into it. That's not good.

One of the engineers I spoke with at EHX did verify for me about a month ago that the blue power light is actually supposed to go out when you engage the phantom power. It's a brand new product that's obviously on the market a little early so the fact that your unit behaves a little differently than mine doesn't surprise me. Maybe it should still be in the beta phase but nonetheless I'm happy to have one. It's less than $200, what can anyone expect really? EHX has to skimp somewhere in order to be able to street them so low and I'm willing to make little mods here and there, upgrade tubes, work with grounding, etc., to make something like this work.

darjama is right in that this pre seems to LOVE acoustic instruments. So far I can say it absoutely loves AC Guitar, Vocals, my AT3035 and my "Alice" mic from Scodiddly. The Oktava's do ok with it but the 3035 and Alice really seem to shine the most so far. I get even more stunning results when I follow the pre with the Pro VLA for slight compression.

[nlmd311]

Sorry to hear you've had the problems you have had with it. Luckily after popping the one tube back in place, all else seems to be going just fine. Still shocked at how similar certain aspects of it are to the pre's of the Soundtracs are.
Strange that the power light would go out on some versions. But I totally hear you about the beta testing thing. In a way it is the beta phase, they are taking e-mails from all the new owners and seeing what is what, working or not. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who isn't experiencing any grounding issues... Here's to keeping it that way!
Thanks again for the reply. I've been craving a Pro VLA for a while now, glad to hear you are getting some good results using these two together. While I don't have a great deal of mics to be able to try out, I will say that of the collection I have and have been able to test throughout today, the Oktava MKL2500 was the top. The EH just opened it up and made it an entirely new mic altogether. It was great. It had a kind of "muddy" smear that went across the spectrum. It was a neat character before, but now that is all just kind of lifted and I have a whole new one to work with.
Great.

well,
Thanks again. Can't wait to try out some others.

-Darrill

[fedexnman]

gotta a chance to try mine out tonight, hummmmm...soon as i plug it in grounding issues.. hummmm . but i still decided to see what they sounded like, i play acoustic guitar and sing, so i used one mic, an akg 451, with blue ldc on it.. seems like a good sound but once i stop playing or singing the hum fades in.. KENNY id love to know how to get rid of the hum.. i might be sending these back to musicians friends...... damn

[joel hamilton]

[quote="fedex"n"man"]gotta a chance to try mine out tonight, hummmmm...soon as i plug it in grounding issues.. hummmm . but i still decided to see what they sounded like, i play acoustic guitar and sing, so i used one mic, an akg 451, with blue ldc on it.. seems like a good sound but once i stop playing or singing the hum fades in.. KENNY id love to know how to get rid of the hum.. i might be sending these back to musicians friends...... damn[/quote]

What soundcard/ recording rig do you use?

(not directed at you fedex'n'man).....

It seems like every time I hear about these things humming like crazy they are being used weirdly, like with adaptors, into unbalanced sound cards....

[KennyLusk]

Yesterday afternoon I was able to isolate the problem to the tube sockets. They're just very poorly fixed to the PCB. If you have grounding hum, take the tube guard off the top and touch your finger to the top of the tube(s) and gently tap the top of the tube(s). If you hear popping or an interruption to the hum you'll know that's where the problem lies. My resolution (finally) came from gently pressing the tube down into the socket, jiggling and manipulating the socket until the hum went away. You may have to work both tubes at the same time; I did. I have grounding issues in both sockets. I also want to clarify it's not a matter of the tube not being fully seated. This is a matter of the sockets connection to the PCB.

And to qualify...I tested the stock tubes and the replacement tubes I used (NOS RCA 12AY7/12AU7) in my B&K tube tester and found no leaks or shorts in any of the tubes. The grounding issues I've had are definitely in the tube sockets themselves.

I haven't cracked the case to have a "look-see" because I don't want to void my warranty but this is the second new unit I've gotten from EHX and it's been the same problem with each.

To answer Joel's question, I was just using a simple and fully balanced config:

"Alice" mic>EHX pre>XLR Out to pro vla>XLR to Delta 1010LT's XLR Input.

[nlmd311]

Cool. So has this "fix" held up so far? I mean, has the hum returned? I assume that due to the PCB attachment you mentioned that this would possibly need to be watched over since movement might shake loose your properly grounded connection made by wiggling the tubes around in the sockets, right? I really hope this is the issue and that anyone else with the hum issues can take care of it just that simply. That'd be great.

*I only mentioned my situation with the tube not being seated in the case someone else was having a similar problem: low-ered output, power LED going off (I understand you spoke to someone who mentioned that was normal, but it took care of my situation) and the most important a fairly noticeable difference in the two sounds, before and after seating the tube. I understand this isn't a source of the hum as I didn't have a hum problem with the unit I have.

-Darrill