Snare drum sound/comments

BigDakota · Post by **BigDakota** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:54 am

I have a problem. I engineer my own band. We're doing some demos and have a question about snare tuning and issues that we're having. I'm looking for a fat/wet thud andsince I'm not a drummer and have no experience tuning I rely on my drummer for that of course. No matter what he does, the drum always sounds choked and ringy. He has always tuned really high and I think he can't get over tuning down a few steps. How do I handle this situation, and how do we go about getting a fat vintage rock sound??

I attached an mp3 of just drums and guitar.

Thanks.

www.bigdakota.com/music/bigdakota/Song One.mp3

Professor · Post by **Professor** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:17 pm

Sounds like a little drum, so it may not be able to get very deep. If it's at least a 14" by 5.5" drum, then I'm impressed it sounds so small.
Even if it's a larger drum, if he is partial to the sound of that drum the way he has it, the best solution would probably be another snare drum. Pawn shops, thrift stores and garage sales, and he could probably find a reasonably nice second drum for under $100 within maybe a week. Then he can still have the sound the he likes and won't be as mad at you for demanding a sound the you like[u/].
From there, and new drum or not, it's kinda helpful to start with new heads since heads that have been pulled tight and played loud for a while will be pretty useless as you tune them down. A thicker, maybe two-ply head will help to sound darker. An Evans Genera Dry HD will give a heavier tone and dry up any ring issues without the need for tape and other crap on top of the head. Getting the head in tune with itself is important for getting a good tone at any tuning. And matching the tuning of the bottom head well is important to helping the drum sound less choked. Most often the bottom head is tuned too low because most guys aren't sure what to do with it, and can't seem to work out what that head contributes to the sound they are hearing. Your guy may be the opposite since he has his regular drum up real high, but it's hard to say.
That should help to get you started.

-Jeremy

BigDakota · Post by **BigDakota** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:20 pm

Yeah the size is about right. We'll try different heads. I mean he isn't a newbie drummer, and we've grown up together palying n different bands with different styles. But for this particular band, it definitly calls for a lower deeper thudding snare. I think he has his top head tuned pretty high and his bottom head a pitch below that. Othe than the snare I like the way the rest of the kit sounds.....back to experimenting.

Thanks for the guidance!!!

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:05 pm

Tuning has everything to do with it. Some drummers get really comfortable playing a tightly tuned head because it's easier to do press rolls or whatever. I find that a lot of times, guys are reluctant to change this, even if it means not getting the drum sound they want. A fat snare sound is not going to come out of a small, tightly tuned drum without replacing the drum sound. It's just not gonna happen. A small drum can sound surprisingly thick if tuned low (Ringo didn't use 7" deep drums), but getting used to the difference in feel is something that some guys really have a problem with.

You could try for a thicker and deeper drum tuned tighter and get a little more body, but the better solution is going to be tuning the drum lower if he's willing to do that.

Hope this helps.

By the way, your link doesn't work.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

iamredarrow · Post by **iamredarrow** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:15 pm

Just have him play the snare track over again, but this time, in a swimming pool full of Jello. That way it can be tuned high but sound low.

JGriffin · Post by **JGriffin** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:22 pm

Does your drummer agree that the snare drum should be lower? Seems not, as he insists on cranking it up like that. This may be a political as well as technical issue. There may be an artistic difference within your band that you need to resolve before recording further. I've met a few drummers who play heavy music but prefer to use piccolo snares so that the instrument stands out rather than just being one of several low, dark tonal objects. You're engineering, but are you producing? Do you allow other band members to dictate your tone? I'm not attacking you; I'm trying to arrive at a perspective on the situation that you may not have considered.

Re: links not working. Try not using spaces in your filenames. Computers and servers and browsers can get confused by them. Try_using_underscores_instead.

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:12 pm

heres a list of things that I find affects the snare sound:

*size of room, hieght of ceiling, etc
*material of room
*absorbtion properties of room and area around the kit
*size of drum
(Shell diameter is more responsible for pitch than any other element)
*type of top head
(vintage rock you might try a remo emp-roar, or ambass-dor or pinstripe)
*type of bottom head
(thinner the more sensitive and shorter sustain and brighter, thicker the more "warm" and "round" with a longer sustain)
*type of snares..
(the most "body"-ish snares I've heard are the 16 strand pure sound percussions but not the "blasters" the other ones..)

digitaldrummer · Post by **digitaldrummer** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:53 pm

or for fun, assuming you are on a DAW, try doubling the snare track (or room mics) and re-amping it through something like Amplitube. You can really fatten up (or completely phuc up) a drum track this way. then mix a bit of that in. it's amazing.

Mike

BigDakota · Post by **BigDakota** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

Thanks for the tips. To answer a few questions, even my drummer agrees that the sound isn't the ideal sound for the band, but....he only tweaks the tuning a little and then sort of gives up. It coes down to himself being used to playing like that for over 10 years and he can't get out of that sound and try something new. I actually changed my sound considerably, I used to play more indie rock'ish guitar stuff, and now adapted my tone to fit the band. You have to agree, a jangly indie rock sound won't fit well with a stoner rock'esque band. Even though this is for demo purposes, when we do record a full length I want to avoid these types of issues and get right to the playing. I'm also recording on an old AKAI MG1212 analog 1/2" TAPE 12 track. My setup consists of the Akai, Hercules 16/12 firewire card and a G4 Powerbook. The DAW will be used for editing purpses. I guess it comes down to being open minded about trying new sounds without coming off like you're demanding that out of the player. We'll see what happens I guess. Thanks guys!

You have to copy the entire link above since there is a space between Song One. The link gets cut off because of the space there.

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:31 am

I keep like multiple snares around to try out on different songs..the variety is great..you can pick and choose on a song basis..and that usually works out super dooper..

seriously it takes years to get good at drum tuning..its an insanely difficult thing and you have to know a lot of things that arent very intuitive..heres alink to a tuning and seating "guide"..study it..print it out..it will give you the basics to work off of:

http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/id5.html

you and the drummer need to learn to tune properly..I've been working with my new expensive maple kit for months now and I'm still not able to get it to sound amazing like i hear it could be in my head..a lot of this is the room though which is not ideal so I have to deal with that too..

with recording drums there are so many factors invloved in getting the sound down it takes dedication, practice, and lots of time..

good luck man..

does your band play shows here in NYC? I'm local and was just wondering..

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:50 pm

It sounds to me like the sound you want to get would best be achieved by lowering the pitch of the drum, maybe using a thicker top head, and some muffling. Your drummer just needs to commit to the sound. He needs to get the drum sounding the way you both seem to be looking for and then he needs to play it like that to become familiar with it. He will adjust his playing and his perception over time. It's always weird to revamp you sound, but sometimes its necessary.

I couldn't get to you song either.

BigDakota · Post by **BigDakota** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:19 pm

I think the sound is workable for now. It's not exactly what I want, but it's not driving me nuts so I can deal with it. I updated the song along with two others. Give me your opinions please....... love it or hate it. I'm doing vocals this weekend.

Hey Beard of Bees, yeah we're a local band. We play off and on and usually piggyback on our friends who tour when they come through. We've all been in fulltime bands and now we all have families. So even though this is part time and we love doing it, it's not our main focus anymore. We should have our website updated soon.

http://www.bigdakota.com/music/bigdakota

Again, thanks everyonr for your input!!!!!

Fletcher · Post by **Fletcher** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:58 am

BigDakota wrote:I'm looking for a fat/wet thud

Tear a T-shirt in half and drape it over the drum... and/or loosen the snares a bit and tape a Kotex to the top head [or half a Kotex depending on how much blood you need to stop]

leftoverking · Post by **leftoverking** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:17 am

a trick i have used to get a fatter snare sound is to duplicate the snare track, and drop the pitch on the new track till it gets a beefier sound, then blend the two tracks together to taste. a piece of duct tape could eliminate the ringing problem. fresh drum heads allways help too.

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:02 pm

I just listened to song one and song three. I think three's mix works a little better. Song one (to my ears) has too much OH in the mix. There's a lot of cymbal sparkle but not a lot of the drums. Song three sound like a better balance of the drum-set.

I'm also not sure that I agree that the snare needs to be tuned lower. The guitars have a ton of low mid action. I actually think the snare needs to be tuned up a bit to ride above the guitar's dominant frequencies. I think some muffling would work for this music. Then compress the crap out of it, maybe on a parallel, maybe at the channel.

How much cymbal bleed is there in the toms and SD? If you could compress the drums heavily without screwing with the cymbals the sound might really kill. I think if I was recording your band and the drummer was into trying I'd try the drums and cymbals recorded separately. Put up a bunch of blankets and get a really tight thing on the drums. I think it would be cool for you music.

My $.02

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