Budget Preamp Comparison

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RefD
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Post by RefD » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:09 pm

Mr. Dipity wrote:
eeldip wrote:if you wanted the 207 track to sound nicer, you could use something even so lowly as that radio shack EQ thingy that everyone seems to love.
I remember something about that, but can't seem to find it with the search function. Do you remember what it was called, or how I can find the thread?
my cousin has one of those, actually.

i think he has the transformer balanced XLR mod for the ins and outs and the sliders were replaced cos of corrosion/dust contamination (it's a bit long in the tooth).

he loves it so much he put ears on it and mounted in the same rack as his Daking and Millenium stuff.
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RefD
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Post by RefD » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:12 pm

oh, and there's this mod that involves replacing the ceramic caps with mylar ones and one or two opamps that can be changed out.

i'll ask him about it if anyone's interested.
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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Mr. Dipity
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Post by Mr. Dipity » Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:42 am

RefD wrote:oh, and there's this mod that involves replacing the ceramic caps with mylar ones and one or two opamps that can be changed out.

i'll ask him about it if anyone's interested.
I am, kind of. I'm still looking to buy one, maybe pay someone to do the mods. I've heard that it's credited on so many good records, it's ridiculous. Still, so far, it hasn't become the next Level-loc or TB-303 (thank goodness).

There's one on ebay, but it's the newer silver kind - the kind that's just garbage whatever you do to it. If I remember from the original thread, the one to get is the old black one, "ten minutes and $5 in parts and voila!" I think it went. Could someone please point me to it? I had it bookmarked, but my computer died a long, long time ago.

Still, I'm interested in this more in depth upgrade. When I get a good peice of gear, I tend to hang on to it forever, so it makes sense. Do you think, if I found a couple or three, maybe your cousin could do the mods for me, or refer me to his electrician?

RefD
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Post by RefD » Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:48 am

Mr. Dipity wrote:
RefD wrote:oh, and there's this mod that involves replacing the ceramic caps with mylar ones and one or two opamps that can be changed out.

i'll ask him about it if anyone's interested.
I am, kind of. I'm still looking to buy one, maybe pay someone to do the mods. I've heard that it's credited on so many good records, it's ridiculous. Still, so far, it hasn't become the next Level-loc or TB-303 (thank goodness).

There's one on ebay, but it's the newer silver kind - the kind that's just garbage whatever you do to it. If I remember from the original thread, the one to get is the old black one, "ten minutes and $5 in parts and voila!" I think it went. Could someone please point me to it? I had it bookmarked, but my computer died a long, long time ago.

Still, I'm interested in this more in depth upgrade. When I get a good peice of gear, I tend to hang on to it forever, so it makes sense. Do you think, if I found a couple or three, maybe your cousin could do the mods for me, or refer me to his electrician?
actually, my uncle is the one who performed the modifications (he's an EE at Raytheon), but he's got a pretty hectic schedule.
OTOH, he only followed some instructions my cousin found with a quick Google search.
he did have to "fix" a few things cos, in his opinion, the guy who came up with the mods was a bit of a hack and had all sorts of bits in there that were pointless.

are you sure about the silver ones being bad, tho?
cos he just found a pair, one black faced and one silver faced, and my uncle says the only real difference is criminally cutrate chassis and a messy soldering job at the factory...well, that and the silver one doesn't have those huge orange drop caps and the large power transformer.

i'll ask him about doing his version of these mods.
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

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Mr. Dipity
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Post by Mr. Dipity » Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:06 am

RefD wrote:actually, my uncle is the one who performed the modifications (he's an EE at Raytheon), but he's got a pretty hectic schedule.
OTOH, he only followed some instructions my cousin found with a quick Google search.
he did have to "fix" a few things cos, in his opinion, the guy who came up with the mods was a bit of a hack and had all sorts of bits in there that were pointless.
Good stuff.

However, the main mod was supposed to take about 5 minutes, and not even need soldering skills, if you don't mind splicing together a couple of wires with electrical tape. All this extra stuff is nice sure, but the average budget minded tape-opers doesn't need al this extra stuff. In fact, I don't think I've heard what one of these sounds like with all this extra stuff - to get the classic sound, apparently you just need a pair of pliers, some electrical tape, and a part ordered off digikey.
are you sure about the silver ones being bad, tho?
cos he just found a pair, one black faced and one silver faced, and my uncle says the only real difference is criminally cutrate chassis and a messy soldering job at the factory...well, that and the silver one doesn't have those huge orange drop caps and the large power transformer.
I have no idea - I'm just going on what I've been told, and what I recollect from the original thread. However someone was saying that yes, the silver ones are definitely crap, and listed all the reasons. It wasn't the silver face though - it was when they were made, so maybe the one your uncle saw was silver with the old insides?

I've been told by people that they compare to vintage pultecs and the smoothing sound of high tube compressors run on '1-1' ratio. I'm sure this is bullshit - you know how it is - everyone on this board thinks their own gear is about the best thing in the world, and how many have actually heard a real pultec or fairchild? Still, It's got to sound pretty good, especially for the price, or people wouldn't be saying this stuff, or buying them up. Have you played with your cousin's much?

I've only got to see one in someone's studio, and it was the middle of a session, so I couldn't exactly ask them to let me twiddle the knobs. All the other expensive stuff in the signal chain was certainly making a difference, but the 'tracking' mix certainly sounded good. The only had the 'crimp some wires together with a resister (?)' mod going on - none of the extra pimping out that your uncle's done.
i'll ask him about doing his version of these mods.
Extheelleent! Ask him if he knows where I can get ahold of one, too. :wink:

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Post by Electricide » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:30 am

Please. There is no magic Radio Shack Eq. There isn't. Move along. Nothing to see or ebay here....

....

Nothing...ahem
keeping price down

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r0ck1r0ck2
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Post by r0ck1r0ck2 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:34 am

suppose you don't believe in Santa Either... :(

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Mr. Dipity
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Post by Mr. Dipity » Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:08 pm

Electricide wrote:Please. There is no magic Radio Shack Eq. There isn't. Move along. Nothing to see or ebay here....

....

Nothing...ahem
keeping price down

Ha ha very funny.

Besides, this is radioshack we are talking about. They would have made hundreds of thousands of these units. Wouldn't they?

Besides, don't you already have one?

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Post by RefD » Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:18 pm

there's a silver face on eboy right now for US$5.
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Post by Mr. Dipity » Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:30 pm

RefD wrote:there's a silver face on eboy right now for US$5.
I saw it. Kind of f-ing POINTLESS, until I can get the search function to unearth the directions to mod it. Or if someone knows more?

By the time I do, it will be so gone though. $5 is ridiculous. The guy selling it has absolutely no idea what he's got his hands on, even if it is the silverface version.

A friend of a friend that I talked to last week had just sold his on consignment, for more than ten times that. He felt he was being a bit steep considering, but he was totally broke and hadn't want to sell it at all. It was gone in a day.

RefD
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Post by RefD » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:26 pm

i forgot to mention, the silver ones are branded 'Optimus' and the black ones are branded 'Realistic'.

at least i think that's the case.
?What need is there to weep over parts of life? The whole of it calls for tears.? -- Seneca

MichaelJoly

Post by MichaelJoly » Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:05 pm

Am I the only guy here who thinks the EH 12AY7 is too noisy for acoustic guitar or quiet vocals with an LDC?

Yes, I'm running it into a true balanced input, but I'm typically seeing combined hiss and hum about 55dB below average signal levels and don't care to hear <60dB S/N ratios.

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Post by 8th_note » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:52 am

Am I the only guy here who thinks the EH 12AY7 is too noisy for acoustic guitar or quiet vocals with an LDC?
Nope, there's at least one more person who feels that way....

The 12AY7 is definitely not a "swiss army knife" pre in my experience. It doesn't have a lot of gain and it's fairly noisy when you crank it up. The LDCs that I have are all pretty high output so I've been able to use this pre mostly for vocals - but in all cases it's been singers who belt it out at a pretty good volume. I would tend to use another pre for a breathy female vocal, for example. In my rig the ART Pro Channel sounds just about as good but it's quieter and has a lot more gain.

The 12AY7 is still very useful and it sounds killer for the price but I would not want it to be my only pre.

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Post by analoghacker » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:19 am

one of the issues here is that the comparison is assuming the price of the different units is similar. that is true. but the technology is not. all of the preamps described are op-amp solid state preamps, except for the EH 12AY7 mic pre. the so called "tube" pres do have a tube in them... but that is not used for gain. they are used as "dirty" buffers to get a "tube sound" (whatever that is...) at line level. the rest of the circuit (the mic pre part) is conventional op-amp circuitry. the EH mic pre is in most ways, really old-school. in the old days, one used a step up transformer to get out of the "danger zone", and then added gain with tubes to get to line level. in order to make the thing affordable, we have dispensed with the transformer. that means on low output mics, there is some hiss, just like the old days. we have filtered the mains supply and regulated the DC heater supply so hum is not an issue... if you want to get the best S/N ratio possible, crank the gain up till the amber led lights up. you can also trim back on that and add gain at the mixer, but better is to adjust the input gain until the led winks. on the other hand, for the money, there are no real tube mic pres. it just depends on what you are looking for.
jc

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Post by fremitus » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:47 am

nice work here, way to go.

to me though, that 12AY7 sounds like ass. kindof like it's pressing the sound through a hole that it won't quite fit in. the ART and MP20 fare well to my ears, with the MP20 being a little darker. but all in the the pro channel has the best response to me, clear and articulate with a fairly balanced low end. there's my opinion which is worth...

very little.

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