Miking a 60-year old drum set

[Judas Jetski]

what are your options for mics?
i think the oktava would be a decent choice for kick...about 2 to 3' from the reso head.... engage yon -10 pad....position to taste...maybe try it farther away? maybe try it below the drummers ass aimed at the batter side...

that unidyne will be lovely on the snare....even better with a nice pre...

Mic options are pretty limited. I'll tell you all what they are but you've gotta promise not to laugh:

I have 2 Unidyne IIIs, a pair of Radio Shack Electret mics that I have been using X-Y with surprisingly good results (at times, anyway), and the Beta 52. I've got the Oktava MK 319.

I have two high-Z shure mics, PE53 and 56 which are probably good for about nothin' here. And I've got a pair of EV635A's that I'm sure are good for something, but I haven't yet figured out what.

For a starting point, I'm thinking to put the Oktava as a low overhead behind the drummer's right shoulder (I'm the drummer, at the moment). The better Unidyne III will go to the drummer's left pointing at snare. Maybe the Beta close on the batter head of the bass so I have a little something to punch it up if I need to. Plus, maybe it'll catch some of the raspy sound off the bottom head of the snare. (I sure wish I had picked up that SM-77 in October, I'll bet it would have been perfect for that. Lotsa low end but doing justace to the high end as well.)

I have a couple of days to work things out, here. Probably recording this weekend; maybe next depending on how things go.

BTW, the bass drum does not have light bulbs in it. I used to have an old WFL 26" with light bulbs in it. They were "vintage" light bulbs, too. I never plugged them in because I didn't want to burn the house down.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

2 or 3 things...
do a search for that 635a and watch people shit themselves over those as overheads...

i bet those RadioShak Mics are fresh.....

a lot of this will depend on the position of the kit in the room...

if you have time and a friend to set the levels this would be a good time for experimentation...

move the kit.. at least try all the mics again...it could be a good reminder..
sometimes a good for nothing mic will come threw...

[Judas Jetski]

Hey! Thanks for the advice.

Oktava 319 wound up about 3' in front of bass, pointed dead-center at resonant head.

Unidyne III was off to the driver's side of the drum set, aimed at snares but peeking underneath at bottom head of tom. Lotsa nice snap, some tom overtones to boot.

EV 635a about 2.5" over right shoulder of drummer (me).

All three mics equidistant from each other. Phasing? No problemo.

I did have to isolate the floor tom from the 319. It sounded beautiful, and so much louder than everything else. I used a foam mat that was handy and coiled it around the "passenger side" of the floor tom (rather than trying to isolate the bass drum, which ate up too much of the room sound). I'll have to remember that trick.

It's all there, and I'm very happy with the results. Thanks!

[r0ck1r0ck2]

good news old boy...

[Autodidact]

First... you get the kit to sound really good [like a drum kit or something], then you record it with 2 or 3 mics [just like a Led Zeppelin or Who record... but don't expect it to sound like a Zeppelin or Who record unless you can figure out how to wake the dead].

The classic "Glynn Johns" thing is a dynamic mic in front of the kit [use that as your main point of reference].

Get the kik to sound good, while you get the "second note" of the toms pretty clearly and kinda the 'snares' part of the snare drum.

The second mic goes over the kit. Listen to that mic in "one speaker mono" with the FOK [Front Of Kit] mic. When they sound good and clear together [in other words you don't have a ball of snot/comb filtered lump of shit for a midrange] then you'll get the 'whack' of the snare and the attack of the toms with the H/H, ride and crash cymbals pretty clearly.

The third mic is pretty much equi-distant from the "OK" [Over Kit] mic... you can actually use like a piece of string or some other measuring device to measure the distance from the snare drum to the "OK" mic then start with the "SOK" [Side Of Kit] mic in roughly that position.

There are a couple of different schools of thought on where to put that sucker... I'd recommend you try both [and anything else you can think of] to determine which will work best for your applications.

The first [and one I find myself using most often] is the mic off the side of the floor tom just sorta peeking over the tom looking at the snare. When I get this "in phase" [as in sounds really clear when listening to all 3 mics in 'one speaker mono'] then you should get the floor tom, more snare, a bit of ride cymbal and most importantly a real "boom" / "depth" to the kik drum.

The second one is with the "side" mic a little elevated and aimed at the floor tom... it's still "equi-distant" from the snare but pointed "north" [toward the audience] instead of "west" [toward the snare]. You'll still get a good amount of both kik and ride in that mic as well as snare but it will be a bit more 'isolated' than the other placement. It's really a matter of personal taste and can swing anyway you feel like it swinging.

There are other variations on the theme with which you can experiment... like the "OK" mic over the drummer right shoulder [with a right handed drummer... left should with a left handed drummer... they bump into the mic less often if you follow that pattern]... fuck around, have some fun with it... it's just a drum kit... it's not world peace; it's not the solution to racism; homelessness; nor innercity crack turf wars... it's just a fucking drum kit. Experiment.

I generally pan these with the FOK at like 11 or 1 o'clock the OK mic at whichever side I didn't use for the FOK and the SOK at the like 9 or 3 o'clock position to the same side as the FOK... but there are absolutely no rules and you should feel absolutely free to fuck around to your hearts content [like sometimes if you get a really good kik sound in the SOK mic then it'll work well panned to the opposite side of the FOK mic].

If you're still not sure you have the cajones to roll with just 3 mics and/or want more snare control... a Shure 57 3-12 inches off the side of the snare drum [aimed at the shell between the top and bottom rims but positioned so it works well with the other 3 in 'one speaker mono'] can often help to ease your worried mind.

Understand, you are now recording the drum kit as a single instrument and not a collection of sounds you can manipulate like Bob Rock [etc.] later in life. This is the drum sound for all intents and purposes.

If the drummer sucks... you're fucked.

If the drums suck... you're fucked.

If the tuning of the drums suck... you're fucked.

97.65% of the time if you try to use and equalizer... you're fucked.

If you want to use compression... try it in parallel when you're mixing... don't fuck with the tracks as you're printing them as it will generally come back to haunt you later.

From what I understand [from talking to Ethan (his son)] Glynn mostly used an AKG D-20 or D-30 in front of the kit and U-67's over and to the side. That's all well and good... I know I don't have a D-20 nor a D-30 and I sold my U-67's years ago so that puts them out of the picture [at least in my world].

I've found that a Soundelux U-195 or Sennheiser MD-421 [or 441 if you have one] will work very nicely for the FOK... and have achieved excellent results with Microtech Gefell M-930's for the over and the side... I've also found the MT Gefell M-295 [small nickel diaphragmed FET condenser] to work like a motherfucker!!

Chances are you probably don't have the Gefell mics hanging around... FWIW I've actually gotten an acceptable result with a RODE K-2 over the kit and a second 421 to the side of the kit. As for the "close" snare mic... there are actually some times when an AKG 414 [with any alphabet combination as a suffix] will work pretty cool [hyper cardioid is the pattern I found best].

Remember!!!... it's the drummer and the kit in that order that is the key to getting a drum sound like this. Don't be shy about mentioning that the drummer sucks and they should really call _________ if they want the drums to sound good on their record/demo/whatever. Chances are better than even they'll tell you to go fuck your mother... but at least you can walk away from the projecct knowing you tried... while the drummer will probably do his level best to prove you wrong and the rest of the band will contemplate his existance in the back of their minds.

Best of luck with it.

you almost said "fuck" more times than Al Pacino in Scarface...lol

[Fletcher]

That's all you took from that?

That I say "fuck" a lot.

Well fuck me for trying.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

hey hey...language people...
children are reading this at schools all over the midwest..

[mfdu]

hey fletcher

i'm digging what you say

i've been playing with only using non-phantom mics lately, and have been getting real warm fuzzy feelings from it all.

b52 centred on kik resonant head
ribbon (shinybox 46) overhead
shure green bullet (harmonica mic) on snare for a real vicious crack.

lotsa fun.

a lot of it comes down to intervals - do the drums pitch right with each other?

chris.

[sloanfiske]

that is by far the best advice i have ever read for miking a kit.

appreciate it.

[mfdu]

now yer just takin the piss

[sloanfiske]

actually. i'm not.

that's really good advice.

usually it's just about mics and not placement, etc.

[self]

my avensons give me a sound i like. Just one mic at an appropriate OH position gets the whole kit nicely. And an avenson on the kick drum, believe it or not, for me kicks the shit out of any beta52 (yes i have tried them in a comparison test). A single OH does it for me when I'm recording a jazz trio, if i'm doing heavier things, i'll use the avenson on OH and bass drum and close mic everything else with dynamics, which i bring up as needed during mix.

apparently the avenson has its origins in this very board!! Because of the very significant noise factor, i use them on loud sources only, where they, imho excel.

my $.002,
self.

[mfdu]

you realise of course that i say shure green bullet as a bit of fun. . .

sm57 maybe, or rode nt4 (small diaphragm condensor) would give a different snare colour (like, d'uh)
i also have a 70's radio shack dynamic which can be just the right sound in some instances.

b52 - do folks agree it's less hyped (more furry?) than the d112? i generally go for it first if i'm going for an older drum sound.

haven't used the avenson, tho i know sir albini seems to like them . . .

chris.

[Bill @ Irie Lab]

curtiswyant was suggesting a a 60 year old drummer, has he heard Charlie Watts recently? Man can THAT geezer play!

Bill

[Autodidact]

That's all you took from that?

That I say "fuck" a lot.

Well fuck me for trying.

YUP!...thats it