Hi.
I've tried not to be S and UTSF, but haven't had much success, so here goes...
I'm about to record a 1946 Gretsch 3 pc. drum set. I'm looking for a nuanced sound--overtones are not entirely bad, creakiness is a plus, use of brushes is a very real possibility. Maybe this is the drum equivalent of one of these breathy female vocal tracks that everyone seems to be into these days.
The set has a 26" bass drum and a 14" tom with a tacked-on bottom head--which sounds pretty good, considering. I'm planning on recording with a mid-60's Zidjian crash-ride and not much else (maybe hi-hat, probably not).
I have 4 or 5 tracks to work with.
Here's the sticker--the bass has a calf-skin head on the batter-side, has single-tension lugs (i.e. when you tighten the batter head, you also tighten the resonant head) and I can't cut a hole in the resonant head.
For the most part, I have used X-Y miking for recording, with the bass drum mic as close to the inside of the batter head as possible. But I don't think that's the sound I'm looking for here, since the drums are not really going to rock out.
I'm mostly concerned with the bass drum, and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this kind of thing. Should I just close-mic the resonant head on the bass drum? Close-mic the batter? I'm using a Beta 52 for the bass.
I'm loosely thinking to mic the bass and snare, possibly floor tom or ride... maybe a single overhead rather than the X-Y's. I could use some suggestions there, too. Probably my Unidyne III on the top head, and I've got an Oktava MK319 that I could conceivably use for an overhead or under the ride cymbal for it and the tom.
Am I barking up the right tree here?
Miking a 60-year old drum set
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Judas Jetski
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does the kick drum have a vent hole? or a hole where the tom mount goes that you can sacrifice to run a cable through?
you can always clip and resolder the connector on the inside of the kick to place a mic there.
though, you could also try putting the B52 dead center, very close to the front head of the kick.
you can always clip and resolder the connector on the inside of the kick to place a mic there.
though, you could also try putting the B52 dead center, very close to the front head of the kick.
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curtiswyant
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joel hamilton
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Put a mic near the kick. Set up OH.
Set up a mono room as well, that you can compress or limit or both for some focused detail."
Maybe spot mic the snare. Be VERY picky about the phase relationships of every mic, and you should have something that sounds like the drums.
Have fun. dont over think, OR overmic.
Set up a mono room as well, that you can compress or limit or both for some focused detail."
Maybe spot mic the snare. Be VERY picky about the phase relationships of every mic, and you should have something that sounds like the drums.
Have fun. dont over think, OR overmic.
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curtiswyant
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r0ck1r0ck2
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Judas Jetski
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Oh, I've got the 60-year old mics. Well, OK, I have one. It's a bullet transducer from about 1940 that I bought at a yard sale for $3. Maybe I should find a way to use it. I paid $5 for the drum set (church rummage sale) but it took a lot of elbow grease to get it to what it is now.
And that's why I'm way into vintage gear. It's what I can afford.
I really don't want to have to pull the head off of the drum, because it's old and cranky and takes all day to re-tune. Plus the calfskin head is about on it's last legs. So I guess I'll have to go with the external mic.
Only question is, when I put the B52 dead-center on the front head, is the front head the batter head? Or the resonant head? They're both front, depending on whether you are playing the drums or hearing them.
As far as multiple mics go, I am a little worried about phase. I know phase issues are too complex to really get into with a message board, so maybe I should be heading for a "less is more" approach here (i.e. like the 2-mic suggestion). But I really want to get the snare drum and ride cymbal to sound like they are right inside your head. I intend to use brushes if at all possible.
And that's why I'm way into vintage gear. It's what I can afford.
I really don't want to have to pull the head off of the drum, because it's old and cranky and takes all day to re-tune. Plus the calfskin head is about on it's last legs. So I guess I'll have to go with the external mic.
Only question is, when I put the B52 dead-center on the front head, is the front head the batter head? Or the resonant head? They're both front, depending on whether you are playing the drums or hearing them.
As far as multiple mics go, I am a little worried about phase. I know phase issues are too complex to really get into with a message board, so maybe I should be heading for a "less is more" approach here (i.e. like the 2-mic suggestion). But I really want to get the snare drum and ride cymbal to sound like they are right inside your head. I intend to use brushes if at all possible.
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Professor
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That's a sure fire way to 'vinntage' sound.curtiswyant wrote:Should he also use a 60 year old drummer?takeout wrote:Use 60-year-old mics.
I think that what you're really looking for is the sound of a single large-geometry ribbon mic setup about head level and 5-6 feet out in front of the kit. If you want to go vintage, find an RCA 44 or 77, or get something newer that copies that design from AEA or PPA or Shinybox.
Or you could go Beatle's style and put a tube mic like a U-47 or ElaM251 out front.
Either way, if you are using the kit for the sound of the old kit, then don't try to treat it like a modern recording. Back off and give the kick a little room to develop its sound before you capture it. If you need 'isolation' of the kick then build a little tunnel out of stands and packing blankets. A single or stereo pair of overheads plus the kick should do you. If the player is going to be brushing the snare then perhaps a sensitive condenser in there to pull that forward, but just as a safety net if there isn't enough in the OH.
-Jeremy
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r0ck1r0ck2
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sooo...does your kick have a light bulb inside it?
i just found out about that trick...and i love the idea
(suppsoed to keep the calfskin at the same temperature)
that's gotta look sooo koo...
what are your options for mics?
i think the oktava would be a decent choice for kick...about 2 to 3' from the reso head.... engage yon -10 pad....position to taste...maybe try it farther away? maybe try it below the drummers ass aimed at the batter side...
that unidyne will be lovely on the snare....even better with a nice pre...
there's your 2 close ups...now you need to find a nice set of overheads..
i've been using an old ribbon...about 5' from the snare
and an EV 664A about 3' from the snare..angled kinda x/y
.works nice so far....a little panning and i've got a smoove one...
but that drum kit does r0ck out..so....
i just found out about that trick...and i love the idea
(suppsoed to keep the calfskin at the same temperature)
that's gotta look sooo koo...
what are your options for mics?
i think the oktava would be a decent choice for kick...about 2 to 3' from the reso head.... engage yon -10 pad....position to taste...maybe try it farther away? maybe try it below the drummers ass aimed at the batter side...
that unidyne will be lovely on the snare....even better with a nice pre...
there's your 2 close ups...now you need to find a nice set of overheads..
i've been using an old ribbon...about 5' from the snare
and an EV 664A about 3' from the snare..angled kinda x/y
.works nice so far....a little panning and i've got a smoove one...
but that drum kit does r0ck out..so....
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Fletcher
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First... you get the kit to sound really good [like a drum kit or something], then you record it with 2 or 3 mics [just like a Led Zeppelin or Who record... but don't expect it to sound like a Zeppelin or Who record unless you can figure out how to wake the dead].
The classic "Glynn Johns" thing is a dynamic mic in front of the kit [use that as your main point of reference].
Get the kik to sound good, while you get the "second note" of the toms pretty clearly and kinda the 'snares' part of the snare drum.
The second mic goes over the kit. Listen to that mic in "one speaker mono" with the FOK [Front Of Kit] mic. When they sound good and clear together [in other words you don't have a ball of snot/comb filtered lump of shit for a midrange] then you'll get the 'whack' of the snare and the attack of the toms with the H/H, ride and crash cymbals pretty clearly.
The third mic is pretty much equi-distant from the "OK" [Over Kit] mic... you can actually use like a piece of string or some other measuring device to measure the distance from the snare drum to the "OK" mic then start with the "SOK" [Side Of Kit] mic in roughly that position.
There are a couple of different schools of thought on where to put that sucker... I'd recommend you try both [and anything else you can think of] to determine which will work best for your applications.
The first [and one I find myself using most often] is the mic off the side of the floor tom just sorta peeking over the tom looking at the snare. When I get this "in phase" [as in sounds really clear when listening to all 3 mics in 'one speaker mono'] then you should get the floor tom, more snare, a bit of ride cymbal and most importantly a real "boom" / "depth" to the kik drum.
The second one is with the "side" mic a little elevated and aimed at the floor tom... it's still "equi-distant" from the snare but pointed "north" [toward the audience] instead of "west" [toward the snare]. You'll still get a good amount of both kik and ride in that mic as well as snare but it will be a bit more 'isolated' than the other placement. It's really a matter of personal taste and can swing anyway you feel like it swinging.
There are other variations on the theme with which you can experiment... like the "OK" mic over the drummer right shoulder [with a right handed drummer... left should with a left handed drummer... they bump into the mic less often if you follow that pattern]... fuck around, have some fun with it... it's just a drum kit... it's not world peace; it's not the solution to racism; homelessness; nor innercity crack turf wars... it's just a fucking drum kit. Experiment.
I generally pan these with the FOK at like 11 or 1 o'clock the OK mic at whichever side I didn't use for the FOK and the SOK at the like 9 or 3 o'clock position to the same side as the FOK... but there are absolutely no rules and you should feel absolutely free to fuck around to your hearts content [like sometimes if you get a really good kik sound in the SOK mic then it'll work well panned to the opposite side of the FOK mic].
If you're still not sure you have the cajones to roll with just 3 mics and/or want more snare control... a Shure 57 3-12 inches off the side of the snare drum [aimed at the shell between the top and bottom rims but positioned so it works well with the other 3 in 'one speaker mono'] can often help to ease your worried mind.
Understand, you are now recording the drum kit as a single instrument and not a collection of sounds you can manipulate like Bob Rock [etc.] later in life. This is the drum sound for all intents and purposes.
If the drummer sucks... you're fucked.
If the drums suck... you're fucked.
If the tuning of the drums suck... you're fucked.
97.65% of the time if you try to use and equalizer... you're fucked.
If you want to use compression... try it in parallel when you're mixing... don't fuck with the tracks as you're printing them as it will generally come back to haunt you later.
From what I understand [from talking to Ethan (his son)] Glynn mostly used an AKG D-20 or D-30 in front of the kit and U-67's over and to the side. That's all well and good... I know I don't have a D-20 nor a D-30 and I sold my U-67's years ago so that puts them out of the picture [at least in my world].
I've found that a Soundelux U-195 or Sennheiser MD-421 [or 441 if you have one] will work very nicely for the FOK... and have achieved excellent results with Microtech Gefell M-930's for the over and the side... I've also found the MT Gefell M-295 [small nickel diaphragmed FET condenser] to work like a motherfucker!!
Chances are you probably don't have the Gefell mics hanging around... FWIW I've actually gotten an acceptable result with a RODE K-2 over the kit and a second 421 to the side of the kit. As for the "close" snare mic... there are actually some times when an AKG 414 [with any alphabet combination as a suffix] will work pretty cool [hyper cardioid is the pattern I found best].
Remember!!!... it's the drummer and the kit in that order that is the key to getting a drum sound like this. Don't be shy about mentioning that the drummer sucks and they should really call _________ if they want the drums to sound good on their record/demo/whatever. Chances are better than even they'll tell you to go fuck your mother... but at least you can walk away from the projecct knowing you tried... while the drummer will probably do his level best to prove you wrong and the rest of the band will contemplate his existance in the back of their minds.
Best of luck with it.
The classic "Glynn Johns" thing is a dynamic mic in front of the kit [use that as your main point of reference].
Get the kik to sound good, while you get the "second note" of the toms pretty clearly and kinda the 'snares' part of the snare drum.
The second mic goes over the kit. Listen to that mic in "one speaker mono" with the FOK [Front Of Kit] mic. When they sound good and clear together [in other words you don't have a ball of snot/comb filtered lump of shit for a midrange] then you'll get the 'whack' of the snare and the attack of the toms with the H/H, ride and crash cymbals pretty clearly.
The third mic is pretty much equi-distant from the "OK" [Over Kit] mic... you can actually use like a piece of string or some other measuring device to measure the distance from the snare drum to the "OK" mic then start with the "SOK" [Side Of Kit] mic in roughly that position.
There are a couple of different schools of thought on where to put that sucker... I'd recommend you try both [and anything else you can think of] to determine which will work best for your applications.
The first [and one I find myself using most often] is the mic off the side of the floor tom just sorta peeking over the tom looking at the snare. When I get this "in phase" [as in sounds really clear when listening to all 3 mics in 'one speaker mono'] then you should get the floor tom, more snare, a bit of ride cymbal and most importantly a real "boom" / "depth" to the kik drum.
The second one is with the "side" mic a little elevated and aimed at the floor tom... it's still "equi-distant" from the snare but pointed "north" [toward the audience] instead of "west" [toward the snare]. You'll still get a good amount of both kik and ride in that mic as well as snare but it will be a bit more 'isolated' than the other placement. It's really a matter of personal taste and can swing anyway you feel like it swinging.
There are other variations on the theme with which you can experiment... like the "OK" mic over the drummer right shoulder [with a right handed drummer... left should with a left handed drummer... they bump into the mic less often if you follow that pattern]... fuck around, have some fun with it... it's just a drum kit... it's not world peace; it's not the solution to racism; homelessness; nor innercity crack turf wars... it's just a fucking drum kit. Experiment.
I generally pan these with the FOK at like 11 or 1 o'clock the OK mic at whichever side I didn't use for the FOK and the SOK at the like 9 or 3 o'clock position to the same side as the FOK... but there are absolutely no rules and you should feel absolutely free to fuck around to your hearts content [like sometimes if you get a really good kik sound in the SOK mic then it'll work well panned to the opposite side of the FOK mic].
If you're still not sure you have the cajones to roll with just 3 mics and/or want more snare control... a Shure 57 3-12 inches off the side of the snare drum [aimed at the shell between the top and bottom rims but positioned so it works well with the other 3 in 'one speaker mono'] can often help to ease your worried mind.
Understand, you are now recording the drum kit as a single instrument and not a collection of sounds you can manipulate like Bob Rock [etc.] later in life. This is the drum sound for all intents and purposes.
If the drummer sucks... you're fucked.
If the drums suck... you're fucked.
If the tuning of the drums suck... you're fucked.
97.65% of the time if you try to use and equalizer... you're fucked.
If you want to use compression... try it in parallel when you're mixing... don't fuck with the tracks as you're printing them as it will generally come back to haunt you later.
From what I understand [from talking to Ethan (his son)] Glynn mostly used an AKG D-20 or D-30 in front of the kit and U-67's over and to the side. That's all well and good... I know I don't have a D-20 nor a D-30 and I sold my U-67's years ago so that puts them out of the picture [at least in my world].
I've found that a Soundelux U-195 or Sennheiser MD-421 [or 441 if you have one] will work very nicely for the FOK... and have achieved excellent results with Microtech Gefell M-930's for the over and the side... I've also found the MT Gefell M-295 [small nickel diaphragmed FET condenser] to work like a motherfucker!!
Chances are you probably don't have the Gefell mics hanging around... FWIW I've actually gotten an acceptable result with a RODE K-2 over the kit and a second 421 to the side of the kit. As for the "close" snare mic... there are actually some times when an AKG 414 [with any alphabet combination as a suffix] will work pretty cool [hyper cardioid is the pattern I found best].
Remember!!!... it's the drummer and the kit in that order that is the key to getting a drum sound like this. Don't be shy about mentioning that the drummer sucks and they should really call _________ if they want the drums to sound good on their record/demo/whatever. Chances are better than even they'll tell you to go fuck your mother... but at least you can walk away from the projecct knowing you tried... while the drummer will probably do his level best to prove you wrong and the rest of the band will contemplate his existance in the back of their minds.
Best of luck with it.
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digitaldrummer
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