Why do drummers go go soo crazy with cymbals

[drumsound]

It's definitely lack of experience. I have some great smaller lighter cymbals that I'll pull out for bashers. I might also raise the OH and even high-pass them and make the OH more cymbal mics that drum-set mics.

I will also spend a lot of time coaching the player. This works to varying degrees...

Another reason this happens a lot is because of high gain guitar amps. The makers keeping making them louder and brighter so the drummer in a cheap ratty rehearsal space with just a vocal PA wants to hear his cymbals over the tizzy guitars so he/she buys thicker brighter cymbals and beats the crap out of them. In the drummer?s mind "problem solved." In reality quite the opposite.

[mjau]

It's definitely lack of experience. I have some great smaller lighter cymbals that I'll pull out for bashers. I might also raise the OH and even high-pass them and make the OH more cymbal mics that drum-set mics.

I will also spend a lot of time coaching the player. This works to varying degrees...

Another reason this happens a lot is because of high gain guitar amps. The makers keeping making them louder and brighter so the drummer in a cheap ratty rehearsal space with just a vocal PA wants to hear his cymbals over the tizzy guitars so he/she buys thicker brighter cymbals and beats the crap out of them. In the drummer?s mind "problem solved." In reality quite the opposite.

Always blaming it on the guys with amps, Tony...

[drumsound]

Well, its not like those guys would turn down even if their mother's life depended on it!

[r0ck1r0ck2]

sooo I am the guy with the amps (one of them anyway)

the amps are
Gibson Skylark..
Gibson Thor..
roland kc-500 (weird for guitar but it works)
not exactly hi-gain marshals here

he's probably just excited...its an exciting song.. 1:15 long...gotta love shorties

i was sitting there listening to the takes..
they're too bright on my asp8s and my beyer 770s
thats crazy
all dark dynamics and ribbons for the room/overheds
the only condensors were on the kick..heh...awesome

the problem is that i am using a ton of the overheds for the snare sound...
and i havn't liked the way lowpassing the overheds sounds..

[Family Hoof]

Speaking from experience, the problem is that when you're really rockin' out hard and getting into the playing you start hitting every piece of the kit with equal fury, forgetting that most of the cymbals require far less energy to project at the same power as the drums. Inexperienced players, when asked to stop and think about this -- control their technique -- it totally kills the vibe that they were feeding on, and hence puts a damper on the performance. They just want to go nuts and not have to think too hard. Know what I mean?

[r0ck1r0ck2]

and i want him nuts on this track...
fo sho...

gonna hide all the cymbals except the hat and the trash crash...
right up his ass

[I'm Painting Again]

Whats wrong with going crazy with the cymbals?

I think it sounds cool..of course the situation depends right?

I think a fierce cymbal performance can be amazing..

understanding from an engineer pov its easy to see that this kind of stereotype is based in reality and how it could be fustrating to deal with such a performance as an engineer..and it follows people will bitch about it as a result of that frustration as well as be correct a lot of the time about proper technique, etc.

we record what they give us and sometimes its just a matter of getting past your own ego in a way because who are we to tell a cymbalist how to cymbal?

how would you like it if the drummer told you how to do your thing?

[r0ck1r0ck2]

if he was doing the recording and i was fucking it up with my keys/guitars/vocals whatever..

i would expect him to tell me to stow it.
and for the sake of the record i would do the damn thing...

i enjoy doing a take over till its done right...
i don't get tired...i get raw onnit..
keep it up till the fingers bleed...

but i know what you're saying...
it's just that its fukking up the rest of the kit recording (except kik...nothings touching that sound...)

look if it's between snare and cymbals....guess which one i think is more important to the song...

[Jeremy Garber]

Why wait till after the recording to start bitching? Get him to do it right before recording, then you will have nothing to complain about.

As a drummer, I understand. Sucks to have to redo it.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

this is before the recording...

i record us all th time..
we set up for seperation for once...

bass d.i.
the whole bit...

this always confounds me...
i'm not commited to anything i've recorded...
i'll replace it all with fart noises if thats what it takes.

and this....

Sucks to have to redo it..

not to me...
the fact that you get to re-do it 'thats the whole point...

[lharless]

heres an idea. i've never done this, but...

if you're having problems with a drummer bashing the cymbals too hard, go ahead and close mic from underneath with the bottom heads removed on the toms. angle the snare mic down a little sharper.. then roll off the bottom end with the overheads and use them more as a cymbal mic than an overhead. pan the drumset however you like it with the close mics.

the mics inside the shell will lend for more isolation, with no wash.

adapt this to your needs.

also, don't forget about the fry container technique. it's actually great for keeping wash down. ...with a diet soda of course.

good luck!

[Jeremy Garber]

My last post was a bit hurried since I was late for dinner. lol

I didn't realize you were a member of the band. That makes things kind of hard. I remember my old band's last recordings. The guitarist owned the multitrack, and the mixes were all guitar heavy, to the point where you really couldn't hear the drums or bass even. I tried to tell the guitarist that, but he didn't want to hear it. Real bummer. I know the songs we did were great, but the mixes sucked.

Recording music on my own has really taught me the "balance of the mix". After all, I can't upstage myself. I really like the tips suggested by others in this thread. I was a hard hitting drummer in the past (didn't realize it until I learned how to control my dynamics much later on). Aside from the tips suggested, I would say continue to talk to the drummer. He really needs to understand there is a difference between recording and playing live. There needs to be a compromise. Not hitting everything as hard as he can will save him money on cymbals, heads, and sticks! Nothing like putting your fist through the snare head in the middle of a set. lol

With my old guitarist moving back to town, it's my gear that we're using to record now. I'm not used to coaching people's performance, but now find myself doing just that. At the same time though, I have to be willing to accept my guitarist's point of view. Our styles are pretty different, but combined I think it's great. I'm more straightforward where he's more abstract. We have to find the right balance. I think that's really the key to keeping a good band together... listening to each other. If everyone wants to do things their way, it will probably sound just like that.

I suppose this is why some people pay people outside of the band to do the recording. lol

[Mark Alan Miller]

we record what they give us and sometimes its just a matter of getting past your own ego in a way because who are we to tell a cymbalist how to cymbal?

Dont' take this personally, but I need to comment.
In the example I cited, it was not about ego, but actually getting what the drummer wanted:

...many inexperienced drummers who I've recorded look at me crosseyed when I ask (very politely) for them to not smash their cymbals, and let the microphones do the work. The 'red light' then goes on and they're still mashing the crap outta them.
Sometimes, when they hear a playback, and ask for more toms, for example, and I turn up the tom mics, only to get more cymbal wash, they get it. Sometimes even then they say 'you can fix that in the mix, right? I nailed that take!' (often not true.) So then I have to say no, but if you insist on that take, I'll do my best. Then sometimes in mix, when the cymbals are still making the snare or toms sound puny and they still want magic. I have to explain again that they hit their cymbals too hard. Sometimes, then, then get it. Others look at me like I don't know how to do my job. Brother.

So perhaps some engineers feel they need to impose their methods or ideals on an artist, but I only try to help the artist get what they want. (Sometimes that means, with their request, imposing my methods or ideals on them! ) The example above is an example of the former, and has happened many many times. A few times drummers who overplayed the cymbals, when they come back for a later recording, have asked 'how can I make my cymbals not so dominant in the mix this time...' I find that they work on it really hard at that point, and are really proud of their ability to do so, self-balancing and all.

Yes, sometimes smashing the crap outta the cymbals does make a sound like no other. Down an entire record, though, I have yet to run into a drummer who honestly admitted that's what they wanted - so much brass that the toms, (kick and snare too) sound puny relative to them.

Recording music on my own has really taught me the "balance of the mix". After all, I can't upstage myself..

Wow. That's a great way to look at it.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

thanks foor al the replies...
the bees knees you are

[I'm Painting Again]

yo Mark that wasn't aimed toward you..I didn't even read what you wrote..just commenting in general, showing another side of the issue, for the benefit of another pov in the discussion here..

there are no absolute rules or truths with any of this crap..just a personal choice and taste in sound and philosophy..