anyone compared the Firepod to the Echo Audiofire?

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percussion boy
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anyone compared the Firepod to the Echo Audiofire?

Post by percussion boy » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:43 pm

Hi folks . . .

I've been reading reviews and UTFSFing like crazy, trying to decide what Firewire interface to try for my laptop.
----
Here's my rig:

- Dell Inspiron 6000 (1.7 GHz Centrino processor, 1 Gb RAM,
(2) 7200 HDs--2nd HD is external USB2, Western Digital).
- Sonar Home Studio XL
- Arturia minimoog v softsynth

*I will sometimes field-record with a little USB interface (prob'ly an Edirol UA25) instead of whatever big interface I end up with.

----
Here's what's important to me:

- Won't crash;
- Low ASIO driver latency -- especially for the moog plug, it's demanding;
- Great converters
- At least two decent mic pres--
(Let's say, as good as MixWizard pres).

----
On paper it seems like the Audiofire should be better (fewer pres, same price range should equal more $ invested in converters & the two pres?), but I keep hearing how solid and sweet the Firepod is. I certainly wouldn't FIGHT having more pres, just don't want cheap sound to get 'em.

Opinions?

Thanks, as always.



[edited to tweak specs)
"The world don't need no more songs." - Bob Dylan

"Why does the Creator send me such knuckleheads?" - Sun Ra
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Jeremy Garber
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Post by Jeremy Garber » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:49 pm

I use the Firebox, wich is the Firepod's little brother. I love it. If I had the need, I would own the Firepod. Presonus makes great stuff.

Your best resource would be to read product/customer reviews on sites like Musicians Friend. I usually surf a few sites reading reviews like this, and then search for as many "pro" reviews I can, before buying the gear.

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I have both!

Post by vsr600 » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:43 am

I bought the presonus firepod about a year ago and after struggling with many problems with it I "upgraded" to an Echo Audiofire 12. I have a Mackie 1604 so I didn't really need the preamps offered in the Audiofire 8. But yea the firepod has alot of problems with it's firmware. If you get one don't upgrade the firmware unless you want to use it as an aggregate device (a new feature in OS X). The upgrade disables the spdif input completely and Presonus can't do anything about it except email you a downgrade. Also another bothersome problem is that when you do decide to upgrade to more inputs and try out the "aggregate device" thing, you can only record at a max of 48kHz with the firepod in the chain. Right now I just use it as an external preamp and if absolutly necessary I'll link it with the audiofire 12 for a total of 20 inputs but stuck at 48kHz. One last annoyance is that if it's plugged in the individual outs can't be set to through, you get "zero latency" but only a mix of whatever the preamps are set at (i.e. everything at 0 dB in your headphone mix). The Echo Audiofire supports AISO so that's not a problem at all. The one good thing though is preamps in the firepod do sound nice...

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Post by percussion boy » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:04 pm

Thanks for the replies.

I did buy the 'Pod and used the latest drivers on the 'Net, so thanks for the heads up on the SPDIF input issue.

BTW, I briefly had an Indigo IO, which I think uses the same converters as the bigger Echoes -- interesting how different makes of converter have a different vibe; not better or worse, just different. The Echo seemed more detailed than the Firepod, and I found the detail alternately fascinating ("I never heard that before") and annoying; maybe I don't like my music too clear . . .
"The world don't need no more songs." - Bob Dylan

"Why does the Creator send me such knuckleheads?" - Sun Ra
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.

vsr600
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Post by vsr600 » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:55 am

yea i found the same thing about the converters... I'm thinking it has something to do with the preamps too. The firepod is a bit harsher on the highs than my makie mixer's pre's. Oh and if you need the downgrade and can't get in touch with presonus, I can email it to you. Another word of advice if you ever need to get in touch with them call them, they never answer their emails...

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Post by jeddypoo » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:06 am

wish I had seen this thread sooner.

I got the Audiofire 12 several months ago and it's been terrific. highly recommended, and I feel like pres on an I/O are generally a waste of time, so I got more I/O and more speed for my money. It records up to 192/24, too, which, should I want to record an elephant playing a giant timpani with its trunk, is a nice option.
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Post by b3groover » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:35 am

This is a very interesting thread. So the firmware upgrade disables the SPDIF connections!?! And Presonus hasn't fixed this?! That explains why I couldn't get any input to the SPDIF while trying to RECORD A FRICKIN' GIG a few months ago. Talk about a major drag.

I love the Firepod. It works great (other than the SPDIF issue, which I hardly ever use anyway... and good thing, since it doesn't work) and is very convinient. I've been using it for a mobile recording rig and I think it sounds good, is very stable, and very easy to setup.

However, I've started to use it at home, where I do some MIDI / soft-synth stuff and for that I've run into problems. Mainly the latency. It is bad. Real bad. I have a good computer, too, with 1GB of RAM, an Athlon XP 3000 chip running at 2.2GHz, etc. etc. and the output latency of the Presonus is around 9ms which makes playing soft-synths next to impossible.

Is the Echo better? I've actually been thinking about the Layla, since PCI based systems tend to have lower latency, but firewire would be more convinient.

Anyone?

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Post by jeddypoo » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:46 am

b3groover wrote:
Is the Echo better? I've actually been thinking about the Layla, since PCI based systems tend to have lower latency, but firewire would be more convinient.

Anyone?
I don't know that PCI systems really tend to have lower latency, really, but that's another debate. But I have had absolutely no latency issues at all with the Echo, even when I'm playing a soft synths. Nothin'. I really love the damned thing. And it's perfect rack-mounting size, not to mention pretty much plug n' play on any Mac. I run a dual 1.42 Ghz Mirror Drive Door G4 (FW800 version), for reference, with only 512 ram, though.
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Post by Jeremy Garber » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:09 pm

I use the Firebox with the latency set at 2 secs (Its lowest setting is 1.5). I have no problem rehearsing or recording parts, wether it live audio or MIDI. I can even record MIDI and audio from the same box and they'll be synced up. My PC is an AMD 3200 (2.2Ghz - I think yours is a little less being a 3000 - not that it matters) with 3GB RAM. You may need to adjust buffers or some other setting. Does your mobile rig contain a laptop, or all outboard gear?

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Post by b3groover » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:40 pm

The laptop is a 64bit AMD. I use that only for my portable recording rig. At home I use the regular 32bit AMD Athlon 3000 desktop.

I have the latency in the Firepod control panel set to 1.5ms but in Cubase it is reading just over 9ms for the output latency (5ms for input). I just read that Cubase is not necessarily displaying the latency right, but it is definitely more than 1.5ms. I don't think I could distinguish 1.5ms, but I can certainly feel the delay right now.

Maybe I just need more RAM.

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Post by Jeremy Garber » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:21 pm

Oh nice you have a 64bit AMD! How is that going? That will be my next build.

I use Sonar. Latency reading in Sonar matches what I set in the FB's control panel. There is also buffer settings in Sonar. I think by default they are 128kb, and mine are set to 512kb, but still it doesn't lag for me. I also use Ableton Live, and it's latency settings are a little odd. It says my I/O latency is 2.54, giving an over all latency of 5.08. Still no lag.

More RAM is always a plus in a music PC. I don't think that's your problem though. And your CPU is close enough to mine to where I don't think that's the problem either.

Try doing some MIDI stuff on your laptop and see if you get the same problems. You said you use the laptop as a mobile rig, so I'm thinking maybe you've never tried MIDI on it. Does it happen with any synth/sampler plugin, or have you only tried one? Are you for any reason using really long MIDI cables? Are you able to try any other programs beside Cubase? Even if it's just a downloadable demo of Sonar or something.

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Post by percussion boy » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:13 pm

b3groover wrote:However, I've started to use it at home, where I do some MIDI / soft-synth stuff and for that I've run into problems. Mainly the latency. It is bad. Real bad. I have a good computer, too, with 1GB of RAM, an Athlon XP 3000 chip running at 2.2GHz, etc. etc. and the output latency of the Presonus is around 9ms which makes playing soft-synths next to impossible.
I checked this out tonight. On my lap (1.7 GHz, I Gig RAM) and Sonar Home Studio XL, I can run the Firepod at 6 ms, no problem, no noticeable delay with softsynths.

Maybe the problem isn't with the Firepod alone?
"The world don't need no more songs." - Bob Dylan

"Why does the Creator send me such knuckleheads?" - Sun Ra
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Jeremy Garber
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Post by Jeremy Garber » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:50 pm

Here is a quick search on the subject in Google...

http://www.google.com/search?hs=vA4&hl= ... tnG=Search

Seems that a common problem with this is the wrong audio drivers being selected to use with Cubase. Since I don't use Cubase, I can't tell ya how to select the right drivers. That Google search should give you the info though.

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Post by b3groover » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:46 am

Thanks, fellas. I actually got a nice email response from Presonus Tech Support where they suggested tweaking some Windows stuff (I already have the computer tweaked pretty good) including turning off the Windows Firewall on the IE1394 port (why is Windows firewalling this in the first place!?) and that made quite a difference! I'm now down to around 5ms and I'm able to record/overdub while using FX plugins, play softsynths with no noticeable delay, etc.

Cool stuff! I'll post the email if anyone is interested.

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Post by b3groover » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:56 am

Here are the suggestions from Presonus Tech Support, if anyone is interested. Most of these I had already done (basic tweaking Windows for audio type stuff) but the firewall on the IE1394 was news to me.
Few optimization settings I can suggest.

1. Right clik on your FirePod/Box icon in your system tray just to the left
of the time. Set the CPU setting to HIGH. If HIGH setting does not work,
try LOW.
The above settings do not apply to the Inspire1394.

2. Right clik on your My Computer icon and select Properties. clik the
Advanced tab, clik the Settings button under Performance, clik Advanced tab,
then set to Background Services under Proccessor Scheduling.

3. If you have Service Pack 2 installed: Clik Start menu, Control Panel,
Windows FireWall, clik the Advanced tab and 'uncheck' the 1394 Connection
and clik OK.

4. clik Start menu, Control Panel, double clik into Power Options and set
the Power Scheme to Always On and set the other stuff to NEVER, clik APPLY,
then clik Hibernate tab and 'uncheck' hibernate, then clik APPLY and OK.

5. clik Start menu, Control Panel and double clik into Network Connections,
if you have a Wireless Network Connection, right clik and 'disable' this
while you are running the FirePod/Box or Inspire.

6. Within Cubase, clik Devices menu, select Device Setup, and select VST
MULTITRACK. There you have "number of disk buffers", set this to 10 and
"disk buffer size", set this to 128 or 256. clik APPLY. Also make sure you
are set to the Presonus ASIO FirePod/Box drivers. Then clik the 'Expert'
button and set "audio priority" to VERY HIGH. You may also want to increase
any related settings within other recording softwares.

7. Lastly, right clik on My Computer icon, select Properties, clik Hardware
tab, clik Device Manager button. In here, extend the IDE ATA/ATAPI
Controllers, double clik on the Primary and Secondary IDE Channels, clik
Advanced Settings. Here you will see Device 0 and Device 1, you'll see
"Transfer Mode" (which is usually set to DMA if available) and you will see
"Current Transfer Mode". Current Transfer needs to be set to UDMA(Ultra
DMA) mode. If either Device on the Primary or Secondary Channels are set to
PIO mode, this could be your problem. PIO mode is a older legacy and slower
transfer mode for older HD's. If either are set to PIO mode, you can change
this by either entering BIOS and setting the IDE Controllers to 'Auto' and
as long as the 'Tranfer Mode" is set to DMA if available, the Current
Transfer Mode should change. If not, in the Device Manager, as long as the
"Transfer Mode" is set to DMA if available, you can right clik on the
Primary/Secondary IDE Channel listed and 'uninstall' it. Once
'uninstalled', reboot your computer and it will refresh.

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