Fixing out of phase guitar

Recording Techniques, People Skills, Gear, Recording Spaces, Computers, and DIY

Moderators: drumsound, tomb

User avatar
gbhansen666
audio school graduate
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:30 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Fixing out of phase guitar

Post by gbhansen666 » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:59 pm

I recently recorded a project where I split out and seperately mic'd 2 speaker cabinents from one Guitar head. I like the sound of the two cabs mixed but I am getting some bad phasey sounding stuff as well. Understanding that it is not truly representative of all possible phase issues, the wave graphics match with their peaks and valleys. Being reasonably new to DAWs and the like is there any plug-in or other technique I can use to get them more phase aligned, or should I just call it a day and throw one of them out?

User avatar
jmiller
steve albini likes it
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:53 am
Location: North Hollywood, on Radford near the In-N-Out

Post by jmiller » Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:24 pm

I haven't had a chance to use it "for real" yet, but if you're using VST or VSTtoRTAS adapted plugins, try PhaseBug. It's sorta like a plugin version of IBP, allowing continuously variable phase from 0 to 359 degrees. It seems to insert a fair bit of latency, so you'll need to compensate. When I played with it in ProTools, it inserted a 3074 sample delay at 44k. You'll have to play around until you find the null if you're at a different sampling rate. I did find it more effective than nudging regions around, which only seemed to move the phase problems somewhere else. It's a cool plugin, and there's a mono and stereo version (both installed by the same installer). Also, it's free. Lots of other cool plugins by this developer, too.

http://www.betabugsaudio.com/plugs.php

User avatar
lyman
re-cappin' neve
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:14 pm
Location: Plymouth Rock City, MA

Post by lyman » Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:32 pm

jmiller wrote: Lots of other cool plugins by this developer, too.

http://www.betabugsaudio.com/plugs.php
the best is the one called "Producer." You click on a button, leave the room, and while you're out getting a latte it sets up mics, helps the band with arrangements, manages out of control egos, and writes out the bill for the band.

User avatar
jmiller
steve albini likes it
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:53 am
Location: North Hollywood, on Radford near the In-N-Out

Post by jmiller » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:00 pm

lyman wrote:
jmiller wrote: Lots of other cool plugins by this developer, too.
http://www.betabugsaudio.com/plugs.php
the best is the one called "Producer." You click on a button, leave the room, and while you're out getting a latte it sets up mics, helps the band with arrangements, manages out of control egos, and writes out the bill for the band.
That's more than I've ever seen a producer do. I suppose it's to hard to code a plugin that talks on his cellphone on the couch in the back all session. I'd prefer a "Runner" plugin.

User avatar
Roman Sokal
buyin' gear
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 10:29 pm
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Roman Sokal » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:25 pm

i like the plug in that magically wipes out the entire session, harddrive, cpu etc.
for those times when the client and the session is so agonizing that you want to pretend that an act of god occured which leaves everything in ashes and is non reversible and presuades the band to give up entirely.
that's just the demo version. if you register it, it adds options such as blowing out the singer's vocal chords, and the ultimate option, making the band disappear into thin air forever. i'm currently developing the latest version of it, but the language code (in visual basic and c++) got wiped out in the process. its working much better than i thought!

:twisted:

User avatar
Mark Alan Miller
dead but not forgotten
Posts: 2097
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:58 pm
Location: Western MA
Contact:

Re: Fixing out of phase guitar

Post by Mark Alan Miller » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:41 pm

gbhansen666 wrote:Understanding that it is not truly representative of all possible phase issues, the wave graphics match with their peaks and valleys.
If that's so, I have to ask: are you zoomed in far enought to be sure this is really true? And if so, is the onset of each waveform (the initial transient, as it were) aligned? If the answer is yes, then you may have a time-arrival discrepancy between the two mics, where one mic is so much significantly 'slower' in its transient response that is essentially has a frequency-dependent time-arrival phase shift that effects the upper harmonics (and transients) - thus, you'll have to 'tune it' by ear... and it may never fully satisfy.
If the latter is true, then turn one mic or the other down until it's contributions outweigh it's drawbacks.

Just some thoughts.
he took a duck in the face at two and hundred fifty knots.

http://www.radio-valkyrie.com/ao/aoindex.htm - download the new record (free is an option!) or get it on CD.

User avatar
A.David.MacKinnon
cryogenically thawing
Posts: 3514
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 5:57 am
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:05 pm

Roman Sokal wrote:i like the plug in that magically wipes out the entire session, harddrive, cpu etc.
for those times when the client and the session is so agonizing that you want to pretend that an act of god occured which leaves everything in ashes and is non reversible and presuades the band to give up entirely. :twisted:
There's a studio in town that used to have a console with a secret "kil" switch hidden underneith right about where the engineer would sit. If a session was going really badly you could press the kill switch, say that the console had gone down and send everyone home for the day.

User avatar
Fletcher
steve albini likes it
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:38 am
Location: M?nchen
Contact:

Re: Fixing out of phase guitar

Post by Fletcher » Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:12 am

gbhansen666 wrote:I recently recorded a project where I split out and seperately mic'd 2 speaker cabinents from one Guitar head. I like the sound of the two cabs mixed but I am getting some bad phasey sounding stuff as well. Understanding that it is not truly representative of all possible phase issues, the wave graphics match with their peaks and valleys. Being reasonably new to DAWs and the like is there any plug-in or other technique I can use to get them more phase aligned, or should I just call it a day and throw one of them out?
Stop looking at the pictures and listen to the sound.

If it sounds good, it is good... if the "phasey" sounding stuff is getting in the way then you may need to either: 1) pick one of the two sounds and work from there; 2) filter out some aspects of the second sound so it works and plays well with the first; 3) effect the snot out of the second sound [phaser/flanger/delay/whatever] and blend it with the first to get a texture that will ocmpliment the song.

Just stop looking at the fucking bars on the TV screen and serve the music and you should be fine.

Best of luck with it.

User avatar
@?,*???&?
on a wing and a prayer
Posts: 5804
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 4:36 pm
Location: Just left on the FM dial
Contact:

Post by @?,*???&? » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:32 am

Oh, the evil buggaboo of comb filtering...

Try this, insert a short delay on one of the tracks. Start at a setting like .03ms and begin nudging in .02ms intervals. 1 foot = 1ms, you should be able to solidify your recording quite easily this way. You obviously can't move the mic any further from the source, but you will be able to move one guitar cab further away from the other with regard to the sine waves each is presenting.

Autodidact
gettin' sounds
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:35 pm
Location: Chula Vista, Ca

Post by Autodidact » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:57 am

Wouldn't it be possible IF the guitar tracks are clean ( would assume not, so if so, disreguard this post) then re-amping one track and recording its amp again?
Formerly known as 'Perranfulo'


Why do people find the need to use the word "anal" in day to day conversation?

User avatar
Fletcher
steve albini likes it
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:38 am
Location: M?nchen
Contact:

Post by Fletcher » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:56 am

Jeff Robinson wrote:Start at a setting like .03ms and begin nudging in .02ms intervals.
I've never seen a delay that gets down to the 100th of a millisecond... is this a typo or is there really such an animal? If there is, where can I get one?

User avatar
TapeOpAndy
TapeOp Family
TapeOp Family
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 1:59 am
Location: Cambridge, MA; New York, NY
Contact:

Post by TapeOpAndy » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:44 pm

At 44.1 kHz Fs, 1 sample = .00002676 sec = 0.02676 ms. I think Jeff is recommending that you vary your delay by 1 sample at a time (at 44.1 kHz). Plenty of delays (software and hardware) allow you to delay by 1 sample at a time.

User avatar
gbhansen666
audio school graduate
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:30 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Post by gbhansen666 » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:09 am

Thanks for all the good (and humorous) ideas. I'll have to try them out when I get a chance to work on it again....where do you get the producer plug-in again?

User avatar
A-Barr
tinnitus
Posts: 1010
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:27 pm

Post by A-Barr » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:22 am

You don't need a fancy delay, just set your nudge amount to 1 sample or .3 ms or whatever and try nudging it around till it works. Recommend you copy the track to another and mute it so you can always go back to the original setup if you get all nudged out and can't get it back where you started.

User avatar
A-Barr
tinnitus
Posts: 1010
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:27 pm

Post by A-Barr » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:28 pm

FYI at room temperature, sound travels at the rate of about .3 inches per sample. Theorhetically, you could use that to compensate for mic spacing effects. I.e. moving the track up 39 samples should egual moving the mic a foot closer.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 37 guests