Basic Setup for String Recording

[marcusvh]

My wife is an orchestra conductor and has frequent need for making string orchestra or string ensemble/solo recordings. I have started with a (don't laugh) Sony Minidisk recorder and am less than impressed with the results. Now it's time to get serious. I've spent a lot of time looking at equipment on the WEB, but the selection is overwhelming. As far as I can tell, this is what I want:

Digital recording system with XLR connections, phantom power, low noise and a minimum of two channels, costing up to $700. Portability is a plus, but not a requirement. Ability to download to a computer is essential.

Problem is, there are too many ways to go - Marantz PMD 660 ($449), Korg D1200 (~$550 on ebay), Superscope 300 ($700). The Marantz is a simple device w/ 2 channels recording to a flash card. The Korg records to a hard drive and can copy to it's own CD writer, but has about 100x the functionality (and complexity) I'll need. The Superscope records directly to CD, but this won't work well when you have to make several takes before the student gets it right.

I'm looking for any advice people can offer. I realize there are going to be a lot of different opinions, but I find everyone has some good points to make.

I currently have an inexpensive wireless mic sysytem (which I only use in places I can't run cable), two Trackstar bullet condenser mics w/ Proco Ameriquad cables, a Behringer UB1002FX mixer and the portable minidisk recorder. I also have several computers, but all of them have integrated sound. I have Goldwave and TotalRecorder software.

Thanks for any advice - Marcus vH

[trumpetgunk]

I used to do a bunch of recording for a music conservatory here in the city. For portable recordings, we used an Apogee Mini-me going into a DAT recorder. A variation on that theme for you would be a Mini-me going into an Alesis Masterlink or even a M-Audio Microtrack or the Marantz you mentioned. The Apogee may be a bit above your price range but there's not much else near that price point with the same quality. I wouldn't bring the computer on site to avoid noise issues.

I would also suggest an upgrade to a nice stereo pair of microphones. I've never even heard of Trackstar nor can I find them on the web. For $400, the Studio Projects C-4 came amazingly close to a pair of Neumann 140's in an A/B comparison I did with a fellow engineer.

A good pair of mics is the best start. Your next upgrade would be a seperate microphone pre-amp...but that comes later.

[marcusvh]

Good suggestions. The mini-me looks great, but my understanding is lacking. What does the mini-me do to add to the recording chain? It appears to be a microphone preamp (and a good one at that), but doesn't any recording device have an analog preamp as well? It also appears to convert the signal from analog to digital. Would you then use a digital input to the recording device and bypass the analog input completely?

Marcus

[trumpetgunk]

The Mini-Me is a combination microphone pre-amp / DAC. I would even venture to say it's a better DAC than microphone pre-amp. Good quality analog to digital conversion doesn't come cheap and that's why I'm suggesting investing in the Apogee gear as they have a very good reputation among people who record classical music. The converters in the Apogee are in a different league than anything that costs less and is built into a multi-purpose unit.

Your signal path would then be microphone to Mini-Me to your recorder via the digital out of the Mini-me. So yes, bypass the analog input on the recorder and go digital. This is assuming your recorder is something other than your minidisc. Minidisc recorders, except for the new HD ones, compress your recording, limiting the sound quality. The flash recorders we mentioned above don't do that. They can record an uncompressed .WAV file which is the kind of file you want to work with.

I hope this is making a little bit of sense. Keep asking the questions and I'm sure some others will get involved with some good advice.

Jason

[marcusvh]

Hi Again Jason:

Hate to keep throwing questions at you - hope you don't mind. So I understand the mini-me. The next question is if the mini-me does such a good job at A-D conversion, why not run the output directly into a laptop computer? Or is there any piece of gear that was made specifically to record just a digital signal (no sense wasting money on a preamp that's never used)?

In reading other postings on this message board, it looks like a microphone preamp is a pretty essential piece of gear. Basically the tube amplifier (if well designed) is quieter and if I remember my electronics right, amplifies the even harmonics, giving a better sound. So, assuming I can only afford a single piece of gear at a time, which is the better setup -

mic > mic preamp > recorder using analog input

mic > mini-me > recorder (or computer) using digital input

My old minidisk is HD, but the recordings can sound "tinny", like they were recorded though a can. I suspect my microphone is the main culprit, but dealing with Sonic Stage is such a hassle I'd change even if the recordings sounded pristine.


Regards,

Marcus

[trumpetgunk]

I would have to disagree with the tube pre-amp. For clean, classical location recording, a solid-state pre is a better choice. Some names you might see pop up are Grace, Millenia, Hardy, and True Systems. Most of these would probably double your budget.

If you're looking to go directly into a laptop, your options change. Now you're talking about using a computer interface with the computer onsite instead of being independent. This can be dangerous as a computer is more likely to crash during recording than the outboard gear we were talking about previously.

So recommended signal path is this:

Microphone (stereo pair) > Mini-Me > recorder using digital input.

IMHO, you may be better off investing in a nice pair of stereo microphones, the Studio Projects or even Octava's come to mind. In other words, nice, small diaphragm condensers. These are the main factors in getting a good sound. You will never get a quality sound from crappy mics no matter what you have behind them.

If after getting a nicer pair of mics; your low cost recorder option becomes the Marantz PMD660. It has the XLR inputs, records onto flash cards, and can transfer the files after they have been recorded directly onto your computer via USB .

So the new, in budget, signal flow becomes:

C-4 Microphones > Marantz PMD660 > transfer files onto computer.

This rig is now highly portable, easy to use, in your price range, and is a good step beyond your minidisc. It's also a good start on the upgrade path.

[marcusvh]

Hi Again Jason:

Last two questions. If I put a mini-me inline with my signal, we now have the option of going totally digital. Would there be any reason I need to use a system like the Marantz PMD660 or could I go with a smaller digital unit like the M-Audio MicroTrack? The MicroTrack has an S/PDIF input so accepting a digital signal wouldn't be an issue. As long as you have a good digital signal, does it really matter what recorder you use (as long as it has a digital input)?

And, if money was no object, what would be the ultimate system?

mics > mic preamps > mini-me > recorder?

Thanks,

Marcus

[joelpatterson]

Don't mean to crash your thread... and I don't have a lot of experience with zillions of different combinations of things...

But I do do alot of live classical concert recording, orchestra/choir/booming pipe organ/and various combinations, and what works for me is pretty simple: six mics, any maybe a spot mic or two for a featured soloist. Taking mics out on location is always kinda risky, inherently, so I've settled on two Groove Tubes GT 55's, a pair of Oktava 012's, and then a pair of some little chintzy $60 Chinese LDC, take your pick. I run these through two Grace 101's, and a Sytek, into an Alesis HD-24.

"Ultimate" sounds like a loaded word, but this stuff works just fine for me.

[trumpetgunk]

After your last post, let me take this thread back about 5 steps before we get totally mixed up about what we're talking about. No offense meant by this, but after rereading your posts, I think you haven't quite got what is "digital" and what equipment you need to get there. I'm also thinking we need to get back to some pre-production basics before defining exact equipment choices. There's also no possible way to do this by posting on a forum.

So, what am I trying to say?? Well, you started this thread with some very clear goals. Under $700, portable, xlr inputs, phantom power, two channels, and the abliilty to download to a computer. I immediately hijacked your goals by recommending the Mini-Me. That was a mistake on my part which I tried to correct for in my last post. IMHO, the best solution to meet those goals is:

A nice stereo pair of small diaphragm condensers > Marantz PMD 660

With this chain, the Marantz is serving as a mic pre-amp, a DAC, and as your recorder. If you add in the cost of cables, a mic stand, a stereo bar, and a larger capacity flash card, you're looking at close to $900 depending on the mics you chose. You could also swap the Marantz with the Microtrack but you lose the XLR inputs.

On a related note, if I were you, judging by your posts on this thread, I would go to the bookstore and pick up "Modern Recording Techniques" by Huber and Runstein. There's a nice section in there on "Stereo Miking Techniques" and also one on "Digital Audio Technology." It may help more than any equipment someone can recommend no matter what your price point is.

Good luck with all this. PM me if you have further questions...

Jason

[Stephen B.]

I would also say the Mini-Me could be a good solution, albeit a little above your stated price range. The signal chain could be as follows, and I know this works well because I've used it this way:

Mic --> Mini-Me --> Laptop

This requires the Mini-Me with the USB option. I think the preamps on the Mini-Me are good--not great, but good, and this takes care of the amplification and the A/D conversion. If the laptop is moderately up to speed, it should be stable. I agree with the advise to get new mics, though. The Oktava mics that have been mentioned would suit your purposes well.