Some questions about tape

[markee2004]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but I really do know nothing about tape. I'm looking to sell my DAW and start up a tape based studio. This is for many reasons, but mainly because I don't like the sound of digital recording, and secondly I find having to look at the computer is a big distraction from listening/working on the music. Although I know it has its place, I simply find it's not really compatible with the way I work.

I bassically want to know what is the standard tape format that top professional recordings are made with? (e.g 2" tape, 6" tape, I have no idea.) What is the difference between tape formats?. Is there any audible difference between different brands of tape? (e.g is so and so's tape better than anyone else's, if so why?). Is there any audible difference between different reel to reel machines of the same format (e.g 2") apart from number of tracks, audio qaulity of inputs and outputs, build qaulity, and so on, if so why?. I'd also like some recommendations of good reel to reel machines, and good ones on a budget (e.g which are the brands, and models to look out for), and just some general background.

Also I'm wondering if it still feasible to use tape, or if it is to expensive and hard to find these days.

Thanks in advance.

[EarlSlick]

tape exists in: 1/4'', 1/2'', 1'', 2'' formats in addition to cassette.
as for which format is a "pro" format, the answer is all of them. What issue really is, is the amount space that each track takes up phyisically on the tape. for example 1/2'' 8 track is the same sounds quality as 1'' 16 track.

Q: Do different formulations of tape sound diifferent
A: yes, for example quantegy (formerly ampex) 456 distorts at a lower level than Quantegy GP9. Even tape that distorts at the same level will sound different if it is not the exact formulation. The speicific choice of choosing a formulation is usually based on person taste.

Q: Do different machines sound different
A: absolutely. There are too many differences to count between any two machines of different brand or model. Even two machines of the same brand and model may sound completely different because of different alignment. In fact they could sound different even with the same or similar alignment within certain tolerances.

some manufacturers of tape machines include, Otari, 3M, Studer, Tascam, Teac, Fostex, Ampex, Soundcraft, Scully, MCI/Sony.

You could find a 1/4'' 4 track or a 1/2'' 8 track for a pretty fair price maybe between $200-$800 the 8 track being on the more expensive side, and the four track on the cheaper side. But be aware, buying a good tape machine can be tricky. I would suggest reading a few things online about what head wear looks like perhaps maybe going to JRF Magnetic's website, and maybe probing some of the folks here with more questions when you had them. There are also plenty of recouces online about maintence such as cleaning and alignment that you would need to check out.

Bart

[EarlSlick]

p.s specific machines to check out are Tascam 38,48,58, TSR 8, Fostex 80-8, Otari MX5050 MK III. These would all be in the aforementioned price range.

Bart

[markee2004]

Thanks for the info. You got any links inparticuarly?

[EarlSlick]

here's an idea of cost:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Otari-MX-5050-MK-II ... Track-Tape Machine_W0QQitemZ220008651963QQihZ012QQcategoryZ15199QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

JRF Magnetics:
http://jrfmagnetics.com/

Magnetic Refrence Lab ( makers of alignment tape ):
http://home.flash.net/~mrltapes/

alignment hot to:
http://www.larryseyer.com/align.php
and
http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/tra.html

ATR tape ( soon to be good info here ):
http://www.atrtape.com/

[I'm Painting Again]

the 2" 16 and 24 Ampex mm1200's and Studer a827's are what many consider to be the best sounding factory multitracks..ATR services makes a custom 2" 8 with custom electronics and is probably the "best" deck money can buy..but you have to have a LOT of money to get these things..the Ampex ATR102 with 1/2" and or 1" heads is probably the premier mixdown/mastering deck..

keep in mind these are heavy duty industrial devices that need lots of accessories and professional technical maintenance regularly..so the cost is much greater than just buying the deck..not to mention shipping some of these things can be a very brutal cost to you as well..

These are some decks tht might be considered "the best"..which really doesn't exist because many of my favorite record were done on a dumpstered 4 track cassette machine..

[I'm Painting Again]

for example 1/2'' 8 track is the same sounds quality as 1'' 16 track.

it's not the exactly the same due to the often overlooked safety gaps on multitrack format heads..

[EarlSlick]

it's not the exactly the same due to the often overlooked safety gaps on multitrack format heads.

I hadn't realized this, could you poosibly explain this further, or post a link? Thanks

Bart

[Justin Foley]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but I really do know nothing about tape. I'm looking to sell my DAW and start up a tape based studio. This is for many reasons, but mainly because I don't like the sound of digital recording, and secondly I find having to look at the computer is a big distraction from listening/working on the music. Although I know it has its place, I simply find it's not really compatible with the way I work.

I bassically want to know what is the standard tape format that top professional recordings are made with? (e.g 2" tape, 6" tape, I have no idea.) What is the difference between tape formats?. Is there any audible difference between different brands of tape? (e.g is so and so's tape better than anyone else's, if so why?). Is there any audible difference between different reel to reel machines of the same format (e.g 2") apart from number of tracks, audio qaulity of inputs and outputs, build qaulity, and so on, if so why?. I'd also like some recommendations of good reel to reel machines, and good ones on a budget (e.g which are the brands, and models to look out for), and just some general background.

Also I'm wondering if it still feasible to use tape, or if it is to expensive and hard to find these days.

Thanks in advance.

Markee -

Speaking from my own experience, I've just finished making the transition you're planning on making.

You are interested in investing in a technology that has largely been abandoned by the marketplace. There are benefits and disadvantages to this reality. The main benefit is that you can pick up machines of significant value for relatively low cost. But there are also limited choices - what machines are available and how you can get them serviced. The lack of interest means there's less information out there about these machines. This is not all bad; you'll feel relieved that you can ignore many ridiculous pro-audio ads and salesmen because you don't want the latest $900 software upgrade.

The biggest problem is that you cannot just walk into a store and buy a new multitrack machine with a warranty (ok, maybe an Otari 2-track or an ATR). So you'll have to buy one used. So ask yourself - where and what you will buy.

What - As mentioned above, there's several brands of machines. The ATRs are fantastic and expensive. 3Ms do not have a good reputation service-wise. The Sony APRs, with mixed reviews, are known for being difficult to find parts. I bought an MCI/Sony 8-track, and two MCI/Sony 2-tracks. Total cost for the machines: about $5 grand, including $150 to Steve Sadler at Blevins for support and $100 to Glenn Coleman for an alignment lesson. I got lucky on two of these machines, and probably paid about $1000 less for the three than I should have.

While the MCI machines do not have the sonic reputation of a Studer or late-model Ampex, there were a lot of them made. This means that parts are not too tough to come by. In addition, there's a few former MCI employees (I named two above) (and hi, ladewd if you're reading this) who still make a living doing some service work. These are resources you can use.

Note - Jack Endino hates the MCI's. He does a good comparison of machines here.

Where - You can try Ebay if you like, but you have to wonder why anyone who knows enough about an A827 to list it in the right place on Ebay would be selling it for $1200. "Powers up, but that's all I know about it. Sold AS IS." In your position, you have neither the knowledge nor experience to sniff out a deal that's better than the seller knows. Expect to pay for your ignorance. That is - it's better for you to buy a more expensive, well looked after machine than to take a bet on something that could be a broken waste of money. Here's where I'd look if I was you (in no particular order)-

1. Figure out who does tape machine service near you and tell them that you're interested in buying.
2. Keep your eye on message boards like this one for people who may be selling.
3. Check out Soundbroker.com. If you're local to the NYC area, you can also check out soundsandvisions.com.

<Break - If you can spare the $6500 and the thing looks like it'll check out, BUY THE A820 THEY HAVE FOR SALE. For less than $7000, you may have a good-functioning version of what Electrical Audio calls the "high watermark of analog multitracks". AKA - the best ever.>

4. I got one of my 2 tracks from Blevins in Nashville. They treated me well and gave me a fair (not a steal, but fair) deal.
5. The best bet is to keep your ear to the ground where people talk about this stuff (here, prosound, gearslutz and check out the Ampex and Studer mailing lists). This is your most likely place to find out about the kind of machine you want - in good shape. Most important is for you to be PATIENT.

As far as tape formats go, the notices above are right on. You don't need to worry right now about the different formulations and manufacturers. If you buy a roll of Quantegy 456 for whatever format machine you're working on, that'll do you fine until you learn enough about everything else you've got to worry about. Don't forget that by ditching your DAW, you also have to buy outboard gear, a way that it wires together (patchbays and cords), some place to hold it all and a board/console of some sort. This is not cheap, quick or easy. But it's worth it.

(Oh, and I also forgot to mention alignment tape ($$), an oscillator, an oscilloscope, a head demagnetizer, a Voltage/Ohm meter, some tweaker screwdrivers, a can of compressed air, 99% rubbing alcohol and some swabs.)

Finally, regarding your choice to go to tape - I've recommended on other threads the Electrical Audio board's RADAR 24 thread about why tape is good. Albini's central contention is that even if you take sonics out of the equation, the permanence of tape over digital media makes it the best format for recording things that are meant to last. Read (and reread) the thread and you'll have a deeper appreciation for the medium.

And speaking of learning, here's a few things I've found helpful:
- John Woram's "Sound Recording Handbook". Unfortunately out of print, but worth at least $100 bucks. A very thorough treatment of state of the art recording in 1992, right before things started to go really digital.
- The Electrical Audio forum. Spend some time in the older posts in the tech forum. It's a great resource for the all-analog.
- The Ampex mailing list. Kind of fun and cranky, but there's some very good people posting regularly.
- The MRL website and the papers therein.

You have a lot to learn, but there's some good folks out there that will help you through it. Take your time, force yourself to pay attention to the boring stuff, avoid anyone who uses the words "phat" and "analog" together and be prepared to spend some money. Some day in the not too distant future you'll be where I am, hitting record on a solid machine to put your next record on tape.

A great place to be.

Good luck,

= Justin

[I'm Painting Again]

it's not the exactly the same due to the often overlooked safety gaps on multitrack format heads.

I hadn't realized this, could you poosibly explain this further, or post a link? Thanks

Bart

basically you have to have a certain distance between each magnetic thingy on a multitrack head so tracks will remain individual on the tape..like not bleed into each other or cause interference with each other..I think it's sometimes called a guard band, shield too..there is a more proper term but I forget..in any case when you add up that space on comparable formats like 1"-8 vs. 2"-16 the less track count format actually uses a slightly bigger physical portion of the tape..


this will explain it all the technicalities:

The McGraw-Hill. Standard Handbook of Video and Television Engineering..

the new edition may have phased out magnetic tape recording altogether..you might have to find a "vintage" copy..

they used to have it, and a direct link to the tape heads outline online but its down now for some reason was here:

http://www.tvhandbook.com/support/pdf_f ... ter6_3.pdf