latest vintage key plugins vs. real things

[alex matson]

I currently own a Mac G4/450 with Cubase VST/32. I like it fine, and when posing a question about upgrading last month, someone responded with a question that made a lot of sense -
"What do you want to do that you can't currently?"

Well, I had to admit that the issues of writing and performance are much more critical at this point for me than not having some extra recording feature. I really related to the old Tapeop article with James Mercer of the Shins. He just bought a basic PC setup with Cool Edit Pro, a preamp and $500 mic and concentrated on the songs. I'm here as a musician, not a studio owner.

Lately I've been working with a few musicians for whom having a nice old Wurlitzer electric piano would be perfect, and I've always loved vintage keyboards in general. I had a B3 for awhile. Never got to use it at a gig. Had a big wooden student model of a Wurly too, with some notes which had problems with sustain and tuning. Never got to use that out either.

So - to my point. Have any of the latest electric piano and Hammond plugins gotten to the point where those who know what the real things can do can say, "At last. This gives me the mojo without the hassle." Or, are the damn things the Realdolls of keyboards? Because if these things are good enough - maybe with a real tube amp/preamp/leslie, then maybe I should be thinking about my first laptop instead of a desktop. I've always felt that for serious recording, desktops are the way to go. But as it stands now, I drag a 65 pound Kurzweil around, and get neither portability NOR mojo.

[???????]

I can't speak for the latest plugs, but basic rules of economics continue to apply to music. That is, "there's no such thing as a free lunch."

So you get a high quality wurly plugin and put it through a tube preamp and BAM! It sounds exactly like....

a high quality wurly plugin through a tube preamp.

[hammertime]

I don't know. I own a Fender Rhodes, which weighs around a hundred pounds, and takes about 15 minutes to set up, and I think I'd be perfectly satisfied with something like Native Instruments Elektrik piano, which sounds pretty damned good (Elektrik piano has Wurli, Rhodes, and Clav sounds; there are samples on Native instruments website). If they had as decent emulations back when I bought my Rhodes around 6 or 7 years ago, I don't think I would have bought the Rhodes. They've really come a pretty long way in modelling/multi-sampling keyboards.

[hammertime]

I think alot of my lack of luck with virtual instruments has resulted from my looking at them the wrong way. For instance, I don't like the B4 --- not that it doesn't sound good -- I just haven't treated it like a keyboard. Instead, I treat it like my computer -- that is, I look at it while I play, and I have a hard time getting it to feel like a real keyboard. The result: if feels like my computer (which doesn't feel like an instrument). That is probably the biggest advantage of some virtual instrument. With a B3, for instance, you've got real drawbars, a volume pedal, real switches, and instantaneous response, which is difficult to get from a virtual instrument, even with automation. But rhodes/wurlis/clavs/ are alot easier to get a good vibe from, because you can just load up a sound and forget about it.

[mikehattem]

If thats what's giving you problems NI makes a drawbar unit to go with it. This way you get more of a realistic performance. I love the sound of B4 but without the drawbar unit I find that's what's missing most - being able to control thje drawbars on the fly. Elektrik Piano sounds very good as does EVP 73. I also have M-Tron which I think sounds great. The B4 and M-Tron are integral to my sound on record so when we play live I run a laptop with a MIDI controller into the PA. And it works fine. Better than toting around a B3, Mellotron and Rhodes/Wurly.

I am not saying the VSTi's sound as good as the original instruments but they definitely do an incredible job of recreating them and for the average joe at a gig - it's MORE than good enough... of course for us musicians, engineers, and connoisseurs we can tell the difference but then again we also spend hours tweaking minor things in mixes that most people won't even notice. If you're trying to impress an average person at one of your shows - no problem. It's truly amazing how far they've come.

Mike

[I'm Painting Again]

I've never heard a plug-in that sounded like the real thing..Ive never played a computer that felt like an instrument..

[hammertime]

I'm seriously thinking of getting that drawbar module. Either that or one of those Voce modules, which I once played through my Motion Sound Pro-3 T, and sounded phenomenal. I was ready to drop about a grand and a half on that nord electro thing, but I just couldn't, because I'm convinced that I could get equivalent or better sounds with less than 500 dollars worth of software.

If thats what's giving you problems NI makes a drawbar unit to go with it. This way you get more of a realistic performance. I love the sound of B4 but without the drawbar unit I find that's what's missing most - being able to control thje drawbars on the fly. Elektrik Piano sounds very good as does EVP 73. I also have M-Tron which I think sounds great. The B4 and M-Tron are integral to my sound on record so when we play live I run a laptop with a MIDI controller into the PA. And it works fine. Better than toting around a B3, Mellotron and Rhodes/Wurly.

I am not saying the VSTi's sound as good as the original instruments but they definitely do an incredible job of recreating them and for the average joe at a gig - it's MORE than good enough... of course for us musicians, engineers, and connoisseurs we can tell the difference but then again we also spend hours tweaking minor things in mixes that most people won't even notice. If you're trying to impress an average person at one of your shows - no problem. It's truly amazing how far they've come.

Mike

[Spark]

Or, are the damn things the Realdolls of keyboards? .

Ha!


Its true its not the same, but a lot of ground can be covered with a midi controller and a few plugs.

Brad347 mentioned the idea of getting one of those free home organs from Craigslist instead. Why not get the midi controller and one of the old home organs?

[YOUR KONG]

I think it's important to delineate between the question of "Will it sound as good as the Platonic ideal of a Hammond B3 + Leslie 122?" and "Will it sound good?"

It's not like anything less than a Hammond B3 + Leslie 122 will sound like ass. You can use a Hammond M3 + a Leslie 122. Next below that, an M100 with the solid-state Leslie 760. Or if you can't do that, then an L100 with a Leslie 21H. Or a Nord electro or or or etc etc etc.

Yes, they'll sound different, but they can still sound good.

I think your point about the Wurli is a good one - if you buy an old vintage piece of gear and it doesn't work, then no, it doesn't sound as good as a plugin =)

Do they have demos for these things? I've never checked them out.

(Regarding the craigslist thing, an old gramma-style home organ is a different beast from the luscious hammond + leslie combo. It might sound interesting run through a leslie, but it won't pass as a substitute, if that's what you're looking for)

[dokushoka]

I think its really all about how creative you can get with the tools that you have. If all someone gave me were plug in tracks, I'd probably mic them up on an amp with some character and find someone to get them some vibe.

Having said that, I am a kind of a stick in the mud when it comes to using the real thing. Having tracked many a Rhodes parts, I can tell you that without a doubt, the real thing can do things that no simulation can even come close to doing. It also comes off noticeably better in the recording. Whether or not that is something that matters to you is really the question. The plugins WILL sound convincing to the average listener.

[???????]

I think its really all about how creative you can get with the tools that you have. If all someone gave me were plug in tracks, I'd probably mic them up on an amp with some character and find someone to get them some vibe.

Having said that, I am a kind of a stick in the mud when it comes to using the real thing. Having tracked many a Rhodes parts, I can tell you that without a doubt, the real thing can do things that no simulation can even come close to doing. It also comes off noticeably better in the recording. Whether or not that is something that matters to you is really the question. The plugins WILL sound convincing to the average listener.

I pretty much agree with this 100%

Also, I wasn't suggesting the grandmamma organ from cl as a 'b3 substitute' but rather as an affordable (free) electromechanical keyboard instrument which will have shitloads more character than any plugin i've ever heard or seen.

Personally, i'd go for 'grandmamma sound with character' over 'sterile-but-good B3" any day!!

[apropos of nothing]

I think something important to mention here is that I've never heard a convincing recording of a leslie speaker. Why? If you've ever been in a room with a (or better, two) leslie(s), you know that the sound comes from EVERYWHERE. Literally -- the leslie is throwing the sound at all reflective surfaces on its axis. No recording captures that. I've never heard leslie on a 5.1 system -- seems like you might be able to get a better capture that way -- but stereo? No dice, dude.

With that in mind, NI B4 does a durn nice job at making floyd-like stereo leslie and drawbars emulation. The overdrive is very nice.

I've also used Logic EP-24 and found it very tine-y, and good-sounding with some overdrive applied.

Would either of them fool me on record? Probably, when used convincingly -- if you're hitting the leslie every five seconds, hmmm...

They'll also sound more "real" if you combine them with some amp tone in a room.

Are they good additions to a creative arsenal? Absolutely. Would I use them if I had access to a circuits-&-tines Rhodes or a B3 and leslie? Probably not. Would I rather carry the simulations than the real things to a gig? Absolutely. If I'm doing a quick "demo"/brainstorming recording, would I rather use the plug-in than set up mics (providing I had the B3, etc)? Yeah, probably.

Bottom line? Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, not as good as the Swedish Bikini team naked in your bedroom.

[hammertime]

Maybe a fairer comparison than plugs vs. real things, would be plugs v. hardware emulations (e.g., Emu's vintage keys, Nord electro, etc), and I think here alot of software emulations do alot better, although I'd probably rather have a keyboard w/sounds for convenience (but not one for 1500 + dollars with a pretty rinky dink keyboard and no drawbars like that nord).

[alex matson]

I really appreciate the responses. Ironically enough, I've been re-listening to Oh Inverted World and Chutes Too Narrow (Shins). Those records don't have a trace of vintage keys of any kind - more like lo-fi Casio stuff, and I swear I hear the Kurzweil 'rotating piano' (a piano sample with cymbal going through a leslie) on one tune. (The point being, I own that keyboard.) Part of the reason I think about a Wurly is that I usually fucking HATE giant epic synth sounds on rock and pop. (Think Coldplay's last record for a recent example.) Where I'm coming from is liking stuff like Perfect From Now On, Mighty Joe Moon, XO.
I know you guys as studio owners must feel like it's a never ending thing buying gear, but for me it's exactly the same as a player. Imagine landing a gig in a band that's influenced heavily by reggae. They have five crew guys and a tour bus with a trailer. "Great, I have this B3!" "Oh, there's no room for that."
What? It happened to me. And you know what? I ended up playing a VK7 that went into the PA, and NO ONE but me missed the real thing. I had a conversation with the keyboard tech for Blues Traveler at a festival in New Hampshire. I was checking out all the happenin old keys, and this guy was completely dismissive of it. He said only the keys player could tell the difference, and it was "a total pain in the ass" on the road.

[mjau]

I had a conversation with the keyboard tech for Blues Traveler at a festival in New Hampshire. I was checking out all the happenin old keys, and this guy was completely dismissive of it. He said only the keys player could tell the difference, and it was "a total pain in the ass" on the road.

Wonder what level of hell that guy would be in doing sound for a Phish show.